Author Topic: would it be possible to have an option..  (Read 14686 times)

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
would it be possible to have an option..
« on: September 24, 2012, 16:37:08 »
in modplugtracker to create multisample instruments out of vsti instruments?

an automated process to save power on using vsti synths?


2 other questions,

why is the instrument limit only 255?

and how about a automated process to create multisample instruments out of instruments that have long fx chains? (again to save power, pretty much sucks only being able to use about 70 vsts at once (lot less if big ones.)

Offline Saga Musix

  • OpenMPT Developers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,518
  • aka Jojo
    • Download music, samples, VST plugins: Saga Musix Website
  • Operating System: Windows 10 x64
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 20:02:21 »
an automated process to save power on using vsti synths?
Well, if it was as easy as you make it sound, it would have been done already. There used to be a tool called VDumper, its Website has disappeard but you might still be able to track it down somewhere. If not, I might have it on a Computer Music Special DVD somewhere... This tool basically does what you want.

Quote
why is the instrument limit only 255?
Because an 8-bit number can only hold as much as 256 different value. And the instrument column (like all other columns) is 8-bit. This might be improved with future revisions of the MPTM format, but I cannot promise anything regarding when and how, and it certainly will never be possible to use more instruments in XM and IT.

and how about a automated process to create multisample instruments out of instruments that have long fx chains? (again to save power, pretty much sucks only being able to use about 70 vsts at once (lot less if big ones.)
I have to say that if you are using 70 plugins at once, you certainly must be doing something wrong. That's way too much stuff going on there. Let me tell you that as a rough rule of thumb, the more plugins you use, the worse your sound will get, not better.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 23:53:48 by Saga Musix »
» No support, bug reports, feature requests via private messages - they will not be answered. Use the forums and the issue tracker so that everyone can benefit from your post.

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 00:36:41 »
an automated process to save power on using vsti synths?
Well, if it was as easy as you make it sound, it would have been done already. There used to be a tool called VDumper, its Website has disappeard but you might still be able to track it down somewhere. If not, I might have it on a Computer Music Special DVD somewhere... This tool basically does what you want.

thanks, i did find it online, though the link for download does not seem to be working.. :( http://www.kvraudio.com/product/vdumper_by_cct
maybe its only momentarily.

Quote
why is the instrument limit only 255?
Because an 8-bit number can only hold as much as 256 different value. And the instrument column (like all other columns) is 8-bit. This might be improved with future revisions of the MPTM format, but I cannot promise anything regarding when and how, and it certainly will never be possible to use more instruments in XM and IT.

well, i do not have any nostalgia for the xm and it, onward to the future i say. :)

and how about a automated process to create multisample instruments out of instruments that have long fx chains? (again to save power, pretty much sucks only being able to use about 70 vsts at once (lot less if big ones.)
I have to say that if you are using 70 plugins at once, you certainly must be doing something wrong. That's way too much stuff going on there. Let me tell you that as a rough rule of thumb, the more plugins you use, the worse your sound will get, not better.

well..

i cant sample to wav and then use the stems like in other daws. but id say that is a matter of taste, but generally i tend to use a few fx per instrument.
maybe some distortion, reverb, some compression or whatnot.
i add on fx, till i get the sound i like.
though id say, that generally you are right, took me awhile to "master" this, but i like the sound and i can only write to my tastes. :)

and, though i sometimes fx the samples and save them as wavs and then use, i find i like the sound better othervise in most cases.
its a bit of a juggle, but only in my largest songs.

btw, did i come off as if i were complaining?
i really like writing on trackers over any other daw´s  and modplug tracker is the best tracker ive found.
im more wondering if some things are to be added or if not, why not.


wondering now, if working with stems would be incorporated in modplug, ive always found the sideways keyboard editor in other daws, rather ridiculous and cumbersome.


thanks alot, btw, to anyone part of programming modplug tracker. :)

and im not demanding anything btw lol, that would be rather ridiculous. im really pleased with the effort that has been put into this, made many of my days much more pleasurable than they would have been othervise

oh hey? why are sidechain compressors so hard to use with modplug tracker? i found some instructions on this site, but couldnt get it to work. (im not a very technical guy though. :((im ok, just not a programmer.)).

Edit by mod: Fixed BBCode (that's not how quotes work)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 00:58:56 by Saga Musix »

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 00:38:15 »
humm , why would you say the sound gets worse if i use too many vst´s at once?


some technical reason or just hard to adjust the settings right with so many at once? or?


Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 00:41:59 »
that vdumper website´s link is faulty and i just found a forum and post from 2006 that says that the link is faulty back then as well. lol.

only found directwave instead, not free though.

if you could supply a link for the vdumper, that would be great. :) (Edit, i found a link that works, thanks anyway man.Edit again, too hasty, other two links not working. lol)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 00:45:38 by sso »

Offline Saga Musix

  • OpenMPT Developers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,518
  • aka Jojo
    • Download music, samples, VST plugins: Saga Musix Website
  • Operating System: Windows 10 x64
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 01:04:24 »
btw, did i come off as if i were complaining?
i really like writing on trackers over any other daw´s  and modplug tracker is the best tracker ive found.
im more wondering if some things are to be added or if not, why not.
As a (mostly) lone developer I don't even have the time to implement all the features I want, so time is a very good reason to deny any request.


oh hey? why are sidechain compressors so hard to use with modplug tracker?
Because OpenMPT doesn't have a sidechain (aka bus). There is no way how a traditional sidechain compressor can work in OpenMPT, except for those that explicitely circumvent this problem through inter-process communication (like SideKick).

humm , why would you say the sound gets worse if i use too many vst´s at once?
It will both technically degraded and through the user's choices - as a very simple to understand but probably not very accurate example in the real world, imagine copying a song from one audio cassette to another a hundred times - it will sound muddier every time. Same is true with plugins, people who put dozens of plugins on every track usually just produce yet another muddy track.

Edit, i found a link that works, thanks anyway man.Edit again, too hasty, other two links not working. lol)
Maybe you should share that link with the rest of the world then, just so that not everyone else will have to make the same search again and again.
» No support, bug reports, feature requests via private messages - they will not be answered. Use the forums and the issue tracker so that everyone can benefit from your post.

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 01:21:22 »
btw, did i come off as if i were complaining?
i really like writing on trackers over any other daw´s  and modplug tracker is the best tracker ive found.
im more wondering if some things are to be added or if not, why not.
As a (mostly) lone developer I don't even have the time to implement all the features I want, so time is a very good reason to deny any request.

well, thanks for all the great work, too bad i cant help ya, but i suck at math and programming. :)

anything noteworthy up for developement?

oh hey? why are sidechain compressors so hard to use with modplug tracker?
Because OpenMPT doesn't have a sidechain (aka bus). There is no way how a traditional sidechain compressor can work in OpenMPT, except for those that explicitely circumvent this problem through inter-process communication (like SideKick).

you ever intending to include a bus? (oh i suppose one could just make stems from the song and use some other daw.)

didnt get that sidekick to work myself.

humm , why would you say the sound gets worse if i use too many vst´s at once?
It will both technically degraded and through the user's choices - as a very simple to understand but probably not very accurate example in the real world, imagine copying a song from one audio cassette to another a hundred times - it will sound muddier every time. Same is true with plugins, people who put dozens of plugins on every track usually just produce yet another muddy track.

ok?

interesting, i have been really pleased with the sound im getting lately,  (typical chain effect, lets say, northpole-amplitube-vogengobox-some reverb-ozone4-and then maybe something more, i add an vst to get a certain something from the sound and then i use eq´s to make it fit together and remove the muddy and sometimes a compressor to boot, i dont remember getting muddy sound unless some frequencies of various samples were conflicting too much.)

not quite getting why this should happen, since its not like photocopy of a photocopy, since it should be able to reproduce the exact same results everytime.

and , why wouldnt the same happen when you use vst´s to modify samples?

Edit, i found a link that works, thanks anyway man.Edit again, too hasty, other two links not working. lol)
Maybe you should share that link with the rest of the world then, just so that not everyone else will have to make the same search again and again.

yah, that would be great, but as i said in the last edit which you mustave missed, the other two links were not working. :(

would be great to have that vst though.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 14:01:51 by Saga Musix »

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 01:26:00 »
so, by the tone of the first reply, im guessing you have a lot of people complaining and demanding things? lol

Offline Saga Musix

  • OpenMPT Developers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,518
  • aka Jojo
    • Download music, samples, VST plugins: Saga Musix Website
  • Operating System: Windows 10 x64
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 14:08:25 »
Please open and close your quotes properly next time, underlined, italic and bold text is very annoying to read. I fixed it for you (again).

Quote
anything noteworthy up for developement?
Nothing that would be finished in the near future.

Quote
you ever intending to include a bus? (oh i suppose one could just make stems from the song and use some other daw.)
Look at the Release Notes (Known Issues section).
In short: Yes, the intention has been there... since the first release of OpenMPT probably.

Quote
didnt get that sidekick to work myself.
You might be missing a file.

Quote
northpole-amplitube-vogengobox-some reverb-ozone4-and then maybe something more
Especially with OpenMPT (which doesn't have plugin delay compensation), this method is very prone to out-of-sync channels, because each of these chains is almost certain to introduce a delay in the signal which is different from another channel's delay.

Quote
not quite getting why this should happen, since its not like photocopy of a photocopy, since it should be able to reproduce the exact same results everytime.
Yes, the copy thing is probably not the best comparison, but it doesn't have to be a straight copy, it's just the more you process the signal, the more quality you might lose (strongly depends on the effects and their quality, of couse).

Quote
and , why wouldnt the same happen when you use vst´s to modify samples?
Of couse it applies to any effect chain.

Quote
so, by the tone of the first reply, im guessing you have a lot of people complaining and demanding things? lol
more than zero at least (which would be the optimal amount).

I'll try to upload vdumper once I have a DVD drive in my Laptop again (right now I can't put it into the Laptop as there's a hard disk in the slot which is currenlty in use :P).
» No support, bug reports, feature requests via private messages - they will not be answered. Use the forums and the issue tracker so that everyone can benefit from your post.

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 18:38:27 »
Please open and close your quotes properly next time, underlined, italic and bold text is very annoying to read. I fixed it for you (again).

thanks.

Quote
You might be missing a file.

what location is that file supposed to be in? (i have it, but im unsure of the proper location, im on windows 7.)


Quote
Especially with OpenMPT (which doesn't have plugin delay compensation), this method is very prone to out-of-sync channels, because each of these chains is almost certain to introduce a delay in the signal which is different from another channel's delay.

i havent noticed it,maybe i just like the sound and adjust for it unknowingly lol, i do have a top of the line intel though.

Quote
Yes, the copy thing is probably not the best comparison, but it doesn't have to be a straight copy, it's just the more you process the signal, the more quality you might lose (strongly depends on the effects and their quality, of couse).

would also depend on the original sound and what your are going for. and i only use vst´s i really like or find useful in getting the sound i want. but yeah, i see your point.


Quote
more than zero at least (which would be the optimal amount).

I'll try to upload vdumper once I have a DVD drive in my Laptop again (right now I can't put it into the Laptop as there's a hard disk in the slot which is currenlty in use :P).


hmm, well, anyone coming in with demands and angry complaints about something they got for free, is a bit of an idiot. (and not even a nice idiot.)

not sure, if id even bother with answering such. (aint got all the time in the world and i like to do things that make me happy, acquiescing to the demands of bad idiots, just brings more bad idiots to the door.) (while i on the other hand consider good people the basis for a good life, keeping those happy, is a whole thing different, though even then , i gotta be happy too you know ;) (as happy people make me happy, me happy makes other people happy.)

but thanks for the vdumper, i appreciate it. whenever you have the time is more than fine. have a good day man.

oh and sorry for the terrible writing style, i see you are the type to notice that and be bothered by it, but im just to tired to make a huge effort. (sick 15 years or so, mostly just dead tired these days but getting better so doont worrry aboot it. :D)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 22:06:45 by Saga Musix »

Offline Saga Musix

  • OpenMPT Developers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,518
  • aka Jojo
    • Download music, samples, VST plugins: Saga Musix Website
  • Operating System: Windows 10 x64
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 22:08:48 »
Quote
what location is that file supposed to be in? (i have it, but im unsure of the proper location, im on windows 7.)
Putting it in the same location as the plugin should be enough, if I recall correctly. Otherwise you might have to put it in System32 and run regsvr32 to register the DLL file.

Quote
i do have a top of the line intel though.
Uhm, it's not processing power (or the lack of) which introduced plugin delays, it's the algorithms themselves. For example a FFT-based algorithm always needs a certain amount of samples as an input before it can produce any output; Most typically this introduces a delay of at least 512 samples for FFT effects, which means that all other tracks would have to be delayed by 512 samples as well so that they are still in sync (or the FFT-processed channel would lag behind, which it would in fact do in OpenMPT). You cannot make up for such algorithm-introduced delays by processing power.

Quote
oh and sorry for the terrible writing style, i see you are the type to notice that and be bothered by it, but im just to tired to make a huge effort.
Please just use the preview button next time when writing a new post... It's very hard finding out which part of the post I am supposed to read and which part is what I have written before. Basically all the time you save for yourself by not doing it has to be invested by to fix the post in return.

Also, I have attached VDumper (from the Computer Music Freeware Essential Selection 2010) to this post; I haven't tried it much and it seems far from finished, but it might do the job for you.
» No support, bug reports, feature requests via private messages - they will not be answered. Use the forums and the issue tracker so that everyone can benefit from your post.

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 22:20:20 »
Quote
Putting it in the same location as the plugin should be enough, if I recall correctly. Otherwise you might have to put it in System32 and run regsvr32 to register the DLL file.

jeez, i used to do dos back in the day, but i cant find where to run files with commands in win7. lol , ive become a dinosaur. (oh ill google it. :))

Quote
Uhm, it's not processing power (or the lack of) which introduced plugin delays, it's the algorithms themselves. For example a FFT-based algorithm always needs a certain amount of samples as an input before it can produce any output; Most typically this introduces a delay of at least 512 samples for FFT effects, which means that all other tracks would have to be delayed by 512 samples as well so that they are still in sync (or the FFT-processed channel would lag behind, which it would in fact do in OpenMPT). You cannot make up for such algorithm-introduced delays by processing power.

yes, i thought i got a rather small boost considering my new computer is at least 10 times faster than the last one, how much memory can i access with modplug btw?

still, i dont seem to notice that delay, sure i get a bad click if i use too many effects, but up until that happens i notice nothing, maybe because im using effects on basically everything.

Quote
Please just use the preview button next time when writing a new post... It's very hard finding out which part of the post I am supposed to read and which part is what I have written before. Basically all the time you save for yourself by not doing it has to be invested by to fix the post in return.

its not ok now? (been a few forums and this is the first time ive heard this complaint. :))

Quote
Also, I have attached VDumper (from the Computer Music Freeware Essential Selection 2010) to this post; I haven't tried it much and it seems far from finished, but it might do the job for you.

thanks pal. :)

Offline sso

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Operating System: win 7 (64)
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 22:26:41 »
oh darn, been googling and i had that file msvcp71.dll and the other one, in the right place and allready installed and all. (apparently i did it last year for something else and forgot.)


bah, maybe i just need to do some more fidgeting to get it to work in modplug.

on the bright side, im getting really good at eq and compression to make the bass and kick fit together .:) not the muddy mess it used to be lol

Offline herodotas

  • Workaholic artist
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Gender: Male
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 18:02:00 »
For vsti sampling try Highlife sampler http://www.discodsp.com/highlife/. Windows version is free  ;)

Offline Saga Musix

  • OpenMPT Developers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,518
  • aka Jojo
    • Download music, samples, VST plugins: Saga Musix Website
  • Operating System: Windows 10 x64
Re: would it be possible to have an option..
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2012, 22:18:10 »
Quote
how much memory can i access with modplug btw?
As a 32-Bit application, up to 4 GiB i guess. More memory might be available by using a plugin bridge like JBridge.

Quote
bah, maybe i just need to do some more fidgeting to get it to work in modplug.
Which version of SideKick are you using? I have only use v3, and it seemed to work when installing the required DLL. You might download Dependency Walker to check if any other libraries are missing on your system, but I think I used the plugin on a fairly clean Win7 install and the only thing that was missing was the VC++7.1 runtime.
» No support, bug reports, feature requests via private messages - they will not be answered. Use the forums and the issue tracker so that everyone can benefit from your post.