Problem with automaticallya adjusting volume

thepixelgrden · April 28, 2014, 19:18:23

Hi, I apologize if this question has already been asked. I don't know the technical terms, so I'll just do my best to describe my problem.

Let's say in the first pattern I have bass playing. Then in the 2nd pattern I add drums. My problem is that in that 2nd pattern, the volume of the bass automatically becomes lower. How do prevent that from happening? Also if I only have one instrument playing, I can't have it play softly. If I set the volume to half (say, 32 instead of 64) in the pattern editor, it completely ignores me. It's like the tracker REALLY wants everything to match a certain loudness and adjusts everything as it sees fit, ignoring my instructions.

Saga Musix · April 28, 2014, 19:25:13

Quote from: thepixelgrden on April 28, 2014, 19:18:23
My problem is that in that 2nd pattern, the volume of the bass automatically becomes lower.

It doesn't. This is either:
a) A psycho-acoustic phenomenon, i.e. you perceive the bass as being not as loud because it is fighting with another instrument for the same frequency range. This can be solved by properly mixing your music, and carefully balancing all instruments against each other. Try playing with the individual global volumes of each instrument, and as rule of thumb, don't simply play every instrument at maximum volume, it's just calling for trouble. However, good mixing is not something OpenMPT can do for you, its your own experience that will have to do it.
b) If your song is playing too loud, or if several applications are playing audio at the same time, it can be possible that Windows (starting from Windows Vista) will apply a limiter to the audio stream which will change the volume of all active programs. This can be prevented by using an ASIO/WDM-KS driver or WASAPI in exclusive mode.

Quote from: thepixelgrden on April 28, 2014, 19:18:23If I set the volume to half (say, 32 instead of 64) in the pattern editor, it completely ignores me.

It certainly won't ignore you, but you didn't give any example of what you are actually doing. As a start, which command are you using to change the volume and where do you use it? Are you using instrument plugins? Some of them don't have a volume control.

LPChip · April 28, 2014, 19:26:58

Do you have Automatic Gain checked in the setup, or are you using a compressor/limiter plugin in the song?

thepixelgrden · April 28, 2014, 21:23:44

Thank you for your responses.

I know i'm not the best at mixing things, but I can tell when something is significantly lower. I have my bass panned a little to the left so as not to directly overlap the drums. Also, in my 2nd pattern the bass is only playing for part of the pattern, while the drums play for the whole pattern. Not only does the bass get softer while the drums are playing, the drums get louder when the bass isn't playing.

The command I'm using to set the volume is the one under "volume command" drop-down menu. It's "v: set volume". The first note is set at 64. The 2nd and 3rd notes are set at 16. The 2nd note sounds quieter than the 1st, as it should. But then the 3rd note sounds loud again.

I don't have automatic gain checked in the setup, should I? I'm not using any plug-ins that I am aware of.

Saga Musix · April 28, 2014, 21:28:40

Quote from: thepixelgrden on April 28, 2014, 21:23:44
I don't have automatic gain checked in the setup, should I? I'm not using any plug-ins that I am aware of.

No, you shouldn't. To be absolutely sure that neither Windows nor any "sound-enhancing" drivers (many consumer-grade drivers try to do magic to make your audio sound better) are doing their work here, try using WASAPI in exclusive mode or WDM-KS in the soundcard settings. Note that no other application may output sound at the same time, or otherwise you will just get silence from OpenMPT.

Maybe it would help if you can upload your module to have a look at, especially regarding the volume issue - surely you are just missing a detail here.

thepixelgrden · April 28, 2014, 21:46:49

I know, I feel like I'm missing something obvious and it's driving me crazy.

I'm not sure if there is a way to upload & share mods directly on this forum, but I uploaded it to mediafire. Here's the link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/dcg7mbziumu84bn/TempSong.xm

Note: the 2nd half of pattern 1 is only set at volume 16 to demonstrate what I mean about the volume staying the same.

You can also really see the what I'm talking about on pattern 3 vs. pattern 5. The instrument in channels 7 & 8, that starts on row 96, is much louder in pattern 3 because the other instruments stop. Since there are more instruments playing in pattern 5, that same instrument is much quieter.

Saga Musix · April 28, 2014, 22:10:31

Sounds a-ok to me. I perceive the bass to be equavally loud in both the first and second pattern, and all the volume commands sound as intended.
I heavily suspect that you might have some "sound-enhancing" features enabled in your audio driver, or maybe even your audio equipment. OpenMPT is most likely not the culprit here.
I noticed that you are using the deprecated MPT 1.16 mix levels in the song properties. If your set the sample pre-amp in the mixer settings too high (default is 9), it's possible that the song is playing louder on your side than it is playing here, and if gets louder than 0dB, Windows' limiter might kick in as well. It's recommended to not use MPT 1.16 mix levels at all. They are just provided for backwards compatibility. Compatible mix levels are the way to go in IT and XM files, 1.17RC3 for MPTM files. Those do not depend on the legacy pre-amp setting.

thepixelgrden · April 28, 2014, 22:26:04

Well... damn. And I have no idea what to do about that. Well at least I know it's not the tracker. Thank you so much for taking a look at the file, I appreciate it.

thepixelgrden · April 28, 2014, 22:40:44

Oh I just figured something out! I can't believe it didn't occur to me to do this earlier. I've been listening to it in headphones. I unplugged them, played it through my laptop speakers and it played normally. Weird. But at least that's another piece of the puzzle for me.

Saga Musix · April 28, 2014, 22:47:36

It's entirely possible that the compression/limiter effect is only applied when headphones are plugged in. I really advise you to go to the Windows control panel and check if any of the audio DSPs are enabled for your headphones output there (go to the list of audio devices and double-click the headphones entry, ensure that all extensions are disabled), and if your sound device comes with a dedicated control panel (often to be found in the system tray area), also check that control panel to see if it offers any other "enhancements" that you may want to turn off. Don't let the system or driver tamper with your sound.

And again, it's very likely that you won't experience these problems when using WDM-KS or WASAPI in exclusive mode. You'll find those two drivers in the sound card configuration in OpenMPT's options dialog.

thepixelgrden · April 28, 2014, 23:27:02

Yeah, this whole audio setup is a mess! There are two separate volume controls, one for the laptop and one for the headphones. I've never had that before. The control panel shows my "communication headphones (IDT High Definition Audio CODEC)", but I can't find any extensions or enhancements. There is"Beats Audio" on this laptop, so I tried disabling that. Didn't notice any difference though.

In OpenMPT, I did change the Sound Card device from "Microsoft Sound Mapper" to the IDT one, and that HAS made a difference. I can hear the volume differences now!

The only problem is that now when I click play, it fades into the song for the first 1/2 second or so, instead of just playing it at full volume from the beginning.

Saga Musix · April 28, 2014, 23:37:57

That sounds like another driver issue; OpenMPT has an option to keep the driver open at all times but that only works with ASIO drivers for now. I cannot really make any recommendations for your setup, except for trying those exclusive drivers as described above. They forbid any other application to use the sound card at the same time, but should also disable any sound enhancements.

Having two volume controls for headphones and speakers is quite useful actually - I use it so that I don't have to remember to put the volume back and forth when using headphones while on the road vs. using my external sound card.

thepixelgrden · April 29, 2014, 00:17:53

ASIO drivers don't seem to be listed in OpenMPT. I've got WASAPI, WDM-KS and some unnamed thing that has the symbol of a blue circle & yellow X. All three have the same fade-in effect though.

It's not a huge deal. I don't know if the fade-in will show up if I export to wav or anything, but I just put a small silent pattern before the song and that works.

The only reason I don't like multiple volume controls is because I can't change my headphone volume by pressing the volume control buttons on my laptop. Heck, it doesn't even show the headphone volume control unless the Open MPT is actively playing.

Saga Musix · April 29, 2014, 16:41:48

Quote from: thepixelgrden on April 29, 2014, 00:17:53ASIO drivers don't seem to be listed in OpenMPT.

ASIO is only available if an appropriate driver is installed. Usually ASIO4All can be used as a substitute driver if there's no official ASIO driver for the hardware, but that is really exactly the same as using WDM-KS in OpenMPT. The "unnamed thing" is, as the icon suggests, DirectX/DirectSound and should be avoided - it's pointless to use it on a modern operating system.
It's weird that WDM-KS has the same fade-in effect for you, since it's supposed to bypass any stupid things your audio drivers could be doing.

QuoteThe only reason I don't like multiple volume controls is because I can't change my headphone volume by pressing the volume control buttons on my laptop. Heck, it doesn't even show the headphone volume control unless the Open MPT is actively playing.

Both symptoms sound like you have additional audio driver crap installed that you don't need. All you will ever need to play audio is the audio driver itself, all the additional control panels from third-party vendors (Realtek control panel and the like) are not requried at all and should be uninstalled, to avoid these kind of stupid side-effects (IMHO).

LPChip · April 29, 2014, 23:39:21

I just tested WDM-KS with control panel settings, and unfortunately they DO affect the sound, even while it tecnically shouldn't. So it seems drivers are able to interfere here.

Can you test the following?

1. Go to your control panel -> Sound
2. On the Playback tab, select the right playback device (if more than one), for example Headphones
3. Press Properties

In the new dialog, there willl be several tabs amongst General and Advanced.
The other tabs are special audio properties. For example, I have Tone, Custom, Levels and Sound Blaster.

In my Sound Blaster tab, I can disable audio settings and these will affect the sound in OpenMPT when the WDM-KS drivers are used. Disabling features here should either disable them on the driver control panel software, or bypass it all-together (depending on how it was programmed)

Can you tell us if this fixes your issue? If it does, you have narrowed down that it is a setting somewhere in your driver control panel, and you can start diving into that to find the exact setting and make changes there.