I hesitate to ask, but...

[apple-joe]

I don't think I should be your 'main man', but I definately find your request interesting. I don't know whether you'd appreciate my music, but I could give you a few samples of things I've created.

I like the idea of maybe creating the music for a certain (small?) part of the game.

[Matt Hartman]

Tolworthy,

I was pondering your request this morning and I have an idea that you may find appealing. If not, disregard...

Let's setup, what we call around these parts a, "compo", which is an abbreviation for "competition".

Here's the concept:

You post several visual scenes of your game some where online. (I can host them for you if need be)

One visual/scene is posted approximately 1-2 weeks at a time. Then replaced by a new visual/scene 1-2 weeks and so on until you have collected the songs that you feel will satisfy the project.

You could add some technical comments next to the visual/scene for quality control.

Composers will build their songs off the foundation of each visual/scene.
You choose which song best suits the project.

Here's the terms, which I think would be enticing to many around here:

1.) Each song is credited to the appropriate composer. Composer's may provide a link to their site or some kind of contact info if preferred.

2.) Each composer receives the permission to reference/advertise their song/s contained in your game.

3.) Each composer receives a royalty of 10%. (no cap) You may want to select just 2 or 3 composers. If you do the math on this, it's a decent percentage and very fair to the fact that you'll be doing most of the work.

4.) You receive ownership of the songs. This means you can do with them as you please without the permission from each composer.

All terms are to be agreed upon and signed on paper so it's legal to avoid any possibly dirty business down the road, should your game hit the market successfully.

This is a wonderful opportunity for the members here to get more involved with their music and learn a lot about the industry in the process. Also, gain some exposure past the gates of Modplug.

It is also a wonderful opportunity for you to save some serious cash and capture some really great and diverse music. Which is probably what your game is calling for.

What do you think? It can be organized relatively painless.

[apple-joe]

I don't know what tolworthy thinks, but I surely think it is a magnificent idea. A compo which goal is to provide the best possible songs for a given setting.

I'm excited.

[Harbinger]

10% may be a bit high, relative to what he's trying to do plus the role of the composer for his project. 3-5% seems more reasonable, if i'm understanding his purposes right. I get the impression that he's not doing this for the money as much as he is the inspiration.
The least he can do is offer a flat fee if he does make a hit (six figures if he's making seven figures from this project).

I withdraw this comment if he wishes to purchase the rights to the compositions. However, he may miss out: i will NOT sell the rights of my music to anyone for any amount. I don't ever wanna hear my music selling tampons or cars or phone sex numbers. I may be weird in this respect, but i guard my art very carefully, and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

But i agree, everything in writing first. One rotten apple spoils all the cider.

[tolworthy]

I haven't checked this thread in a couple of weeks, and whammo! Two new messages! Thanks! I appreciate the support. Since posting last I've been spending a lot more time on the game, and it is definitely on track for a 2010 release. I've managed to obtain a quantity of good quality licenced music, but there will definitely be big gaps - some areas where I just have no suitable music at all. But I won't know for sure where the gaps are until all the locations are finished, around the start of 2007. I will be in touch again. Thanks again.

[tolworthy]

10% may be a bit high, relative to what he's trying to do plus the role of the composer for his project. 3-5% seems more reasonable, if I'm understanding his purposes right.

A competition is a great idea! But you have hit the nail on the head - the numbers just don't add up for me to do this the usual way through royalties. This is why:

Most high profile mainstream games sell for about $40. But I am a complete unknown in the world of games, so I can't expect my game to sell for more than, say, $20. The retailer typically takes 40%, leaving $12. Manufacturing and distribution costs are typically around a dollar (higher or lower depending on method). For a game to succeed, a publisher needs to make a heavy investment in promotion, and (being unknown) they will want a good return. Bottom line is that, if I am lucky,  I will make about $5 per game.  And remember that there is a very real risk that the game will flop, though I hope it doesn't. So we are not talking large numbers, but it gets worse:

But the game is large. VERY large. Over 3000 scenes and 500 musical tracks  Thanks to the wonders of the Internet, I have been able to find nine tenths of this in public domain and almost-free licensed material. But it still means that I struggle to find about 300 unusual images and about 50 unusual musical tracks. If I go down the usual route of royalties, I would probably have to pay around fifty people. Even if they each got just half a percent of gross, or just 2 percent of my five bucks a game, then I would end up losing money on every game sold due to my other costs (software, etc.) Even if I only had to pay ten people and they only wanted 1 percent of gross, that would still mean that I make just a few pennies for each game sold. Not much for ten years' intensive work. For the same reason I don't want to ask a musician to spend days or weeks on a project for almost nothing. I hope I can find someone who does it for the joy of doing it, and would be happy with payment-in-kind (see below).

This is why I sound so mean. If I pay anything realistic, then the game never gets made. I hae already paid out several hundred dollars for the very cheap almost-free licenses I mentioned before. I will probably; end up paying more for material that simply cannot be obtained in any other way. But the sheer size of the game means that when the word "royalties" is mentioned I run away in terror.

So realistically, the only payment I can offer is payment in kind. Credit in the game, obviously. But beyond that, I can write the author into the game as a character of their choice. If the game sells well, they will be immortalised and have something that money cannot buy. If the game flops, then they wouldn't have made any money anyway.

I realise that most people will not want these terms. That's OK - most people prefer cold hard cash. I know that I do! But if I ask enough people then eventually one or two people might maybe share the same vision and be willing to take a chance. Particularly if they have music already made, so it doesn't cost them anything more to release a permission slip. If nobody bites, I will fully understand. I am asking for a lot. If I get no new music, the game will still be made - I can make do with the other material I mentioned earlier. But I care passionately about this concept, and want to make it the very best that I can, so if there is even the tiniest chance that I can get even better music, then I will keep trying!

So regarding the competition, it is on, but under unusual terms. The prize is to be immortalised as a game character, and more than one person can "win" The rest is negotiable. The more important the music, the more important the character.

As for screenshots, I will be adding about a hundred new screenshots to the site in a few months months. Right now I am adding a thousand new scenes to the game, and expect to have them working by January 2007, but I hope to have some mocked up screen shots ready by the summer. (The first half of 2007 will be spent adding more people and animations, then I get back to coding the stories. 20089 will be spent testing and improving, for a release in 2010.) Meanwhile, these are the scenes that most need music:

* ancient Rome

* ancient and prehistoric topics - the dawn of human history and before

* Shakespearean Europe

* caves

* organic, biological alien worlds - imagine that you are squelching through the insides of a giant living organism, inhabited by aliens who are friendly, but look like giant insects

* underground alien worlds - I have over 60 of these! Some organic, some mechanical, some just mysterious.

* forests and jungle

* cosmic, mind expanding, infinite

More than anything, the holy grail, is something I don't expect to find: real voices. That stuff is incredibly expensive to license! I just cannot afford to even dream of it. You know the kind of thing, where it sounds like a cathedral choir, or the Carmina Burana, or monks chanting. The kind of thing used in every big Hollywood movie. If anybody sings in a choir and could record some Latin music or "aaaah" sounds, then get the choir master to sign a permission slip, I would sell my soul for it (well, almost).

If someone came up with real voices singing plainsong (Gregorian chant) or something from the mass, or something from Wagner, or something similar, I would pay real money (in modest amounts!), AND make you the star of the whole game, AND name the game after you or your choir, anything you want! If anyone does sing in a choir and wants some unusual publicity for the choir, maybe they would give it a thought. But I don't expect to find anything like that. So that part is just wishful thinking.

Gosh, this is a long message! Thanks for reading.

[Snu]

sounds interesting... tho i would like to hear more about the storyline and philosophy behind it before i commit.  also as in harbringer's case, i would have a high standard for any scenes that would be associated with my music.  and i really dont like the idea of mono tracks... O_o
once thats out of the way, i would be open to you using some of my existing tracks, or writing some in a particular style.
musically, i love to write in a variety of different styles, and i have had a few years of formal education in music (tho no degree yet).  im really not interested in money, tho definitely a place in the credits would be required, and a free copy of the game :D
so, give my music a listen if ya like, i look forward to hearing what you think.


by the way, have you looked at the internet archive open source audio?
http://www.archive.org/details/opensource_audio
just pay attention to the licences on them, they vary.

[tolworthy]

sounds interesting... tho i would like to hear more about the storyline and philosophy behind it before i commit.

Very wise! I sometimes forget that most of the game exists on my computer and not on the web site. I'd have a major update to the site in a month or so, but until then, here are more details.

The game is made of several sub-games, plus a big story to join it all together. Each sub game can be played on its own. For example, if you like Les Miserables, you can see the game as a Les Mis game and just ignore the rest of it. The sub games are:

Les Miserables
War and Peace
Dante's Inferno
Fairy Tales
The Time Machine
(if I have time) Journey to the Center of the Earth
(if I have time) Shakespeare's Julius Caesar

My goal is to sell enough in the first version so I can give up my part time job and work full time on version 2. Version 2 will have the complete works of Shakespeare, and probably a few others. Having "the complete works" will be a hook that hopefully gets people's attention! My original plan, back in 2000, was to design the game engine so it would be easy to add literally thousands of sub games. In hindsight that was too optimistic. But I still hope to have more than 40 sub-games in version 2. Much of the work on version 1 is to create a background world and characters that can be reused.

How each sub game is approached:

I stick as close as possible to the original book, but sometimes that is not possible, or I want to look at it from a different angle. This is how I approach each story:

The Time Machine: you are the time traveller of the book. You can visit various periods in the past and future (about 40 time periods in all). It follows the book fairly closely.

Fairy tales: this is the kids section. The rest of the game can be very serious, so this is where you come for fun. The backgrounds and characters are drawn by my children. I remember how much my kids liked computer games before they could read. In this part of the game you can talk to people, but it does not matter if you can't read. You can just click on stuff and see fun things happen.

War and Peace and (a seperate sub game) Les Miserables: these books cover many years, and include the deaths of the main characters, so it wasn't practical for the player to be a character in the books. You play someone who meets the main characters and moves the story along. For example, the book Les Miserables has been criticised for having many unlikely coincidences. In my game, you meet the characters and make these things happen.

Dante's Inferno: you follow the same route as Dante, seeing the same things, with Virgil as your guide, just as in the book. Virgil says and does what he does in the book (more or less), but you look at it with a modern eye. With his medieval viewpoint, Dante saw it a little differently. For example, in one of the circles of hell, Dante saw the souls of those who committed the sin of lust. The lustful people are naked (don't worry, you don't see any details) and endlessly thrown around in a whirlwind. Dante sees this as a terrible punishment. But in my game it is observed that the people actually enjoy it. This is a general theme throughout my game, and how it is different from other games. I don't see the universe as good versus evil. I see it as different viewpoints that need to be understood: we solve our problems by talking and cooperating, not by fighting.

Which brings up the subject of conflict. All good stories need conflict. And they need a clear direction. So it's time to talk about the big structure. Obviously each sub-game has its own story and conflict. As far as possible I want all the game to be based on classic stories. But I do need something to tie it together and this is it:

The game is about serious stuff and it starts with the most important question of all: there are people starving to death right now, and what are you doing about it? That is the goal: end world hunger. And that is the conflict: you soon discover that hunger is built into how the world works. To solve world hunger as well as other injustices, you need to address traditional ideas and economic realities. in other words you need to change the whole world. That is the conflict: you against the world. And you against yourself - you don't really want to do this, because it is a huge task, you think you will probably fail, and challenging the world makes you lonely and unpopular. (I will probably add a love interest at some point: nobody wants to play a game as someone who is genuinely lonely). So the purpose is to end hunger, and the conflict is with everyone's previous ideas of right and wrong.

At this point you have probably noticed two problems. First, how does one person do al this stuff? And second, how do I stoop it being depressing or too complicated? Keep reading.

The hero has a spacial power, though he cannot control it. He can jump (in a very limited way) between time and space. This explains why he can be in France of the 1830s (for Les Miserables) and then walk a few miles and be in Russia in 1812 (for War and Peace). Or how he can walk four thousand miles to the centre of the earth (in Dante's Inferno). Other people think he just daydreams or does not pay attention, that he only imagines he is at those places, But to the user it is real. What most of do in our imaginations, he does in reality. I have tied this to the story (in particular Jules Verne's The Time Machine) and it allows him to meet other dimensional beings who help him along his way. Right near the start he meets his future self and is assured that yes, he will succeed, but the laws of physics forbid him saying how. I have tried to keep this all correct according to physical laws. For example, the quantum theory of time travel and how information can (or rather, cannot) be moved from A to B.

The bottom line of this power is existential angst. Our hero feels he does not fit into the world. He feels the mother of all liberal guilt, the need to fix the world, but he does not know how and he does not want to. I could go on. Part of the beauty of an adventure game is that some people will want to explore those ideas in detail, and others will want to completely skip those parts. For some people, our hero is just a guy with time travel powers who has adventures. It can work on that level.

To cut a very long story short, when the user has completed all the sub games, he/she can adapt the time machine for space travel, and explore other worlds. This is all part of the big overall task of ending world hunger (see, I told you it wasn't easy.) The final great meta-task involves uniting the different parts of the universe, and the last part of the game takes place in a different dimension. I won't give any more away, except to say that I use the alien worlds to explore science fiction ideas (i.e. ideas that push but don't break the known laws of physics) and the alien dimension is used for fantasy elements (magic, castles, monsters, etc.) . At the end of it all, the hero finds the answers, discovers the truth about his universe, and sees his place in the great scheme of things.

Now let's talk about the philosophy. And the politics. And religion. The user can talk with various characters (but only if he wants to) about philosophy and religion and politics. Each character will have a particular view, and the user will be given what I hope are good counter-arguments. Some users will agree with one side, some will agree with the other side. When I present an idea that I think is cool, I want the other guy to give the best possible arguments against it. This is where the adventure game format is at its best, in my opinion. You can have "real" conversations, but you are not forced to take one side or to read every part. However, I do have my own views, and these will no doubt come through. So this is where I stand. You don't have to agree with me to have music in the game, but you probably need to be broadly comfortable with the approach.

Let's talk politics. I am a Georgist. That is, I believe that land rent is the key to economic justice, and the game will reflect that. I don't want it to be too preachy, but the game will meet people with different political views, and it will tend to approach the issues from a land rent perspective. For a crude idea of what land rent is, see my other web site, answersanswers.com. That web site is not perfect. It's crude and simplistic and has many faults, and one day I intend to change it. But it gives a rough idea of what I mean by Georgism and land rent.

My belief in Georgism leads to other conclusions. For example, I think that people should be able to choose (or start) their governments in the same way that they choose (or start) other forms of business. Part of my game is a future society where today's problems have been solved, and the user learns in detail how this has been achieved. If you want to see my views on other political topics, go to my home page and click on the link that says "answers, answers." Please note that these ideas are only stated on that web site. In the game they will be developed and expanded in detail. But only if the player wants to. Users can completely ignore these things if they wish. Or talk about them and disagree strongly. Or they can treat the game as just a bit of fun and ignore all the possible deep conversations. But if you choose to talk more deeply with some characters, you may find that these topics come up.

I should probably mention the religious side of things. I was raised as a Mormon, and was very active (I was a full time missionary, ran a local branch of the church, and published a book and a large web site supporting the church). But by the age of 34 I came to the conclusion that my church was based on a fraud, and I left. I won't be mentioning Mormonism at all in the game, but I think you should know where I am coming from. I am now a pantheist. That is, I believe that God and the Universe are the same thing. The game will NOT say "this kind of religion is good and this kind is bad." I intend to show the hero benefiting from key ideas of many religions. At one point he will feel deeply lonely and hopeless, and at that point he visits Christians who show the real advantages of having Jesus as a friend. At another point in the game he will under impossible stress at the enormity of his task, and at this point he visits Buddhists who help him to become detached from his needs and desires. At other point in the game he will be overwhelmed by the enormous scale of it all, and be helped by the Hindu concept of repeating cycles and local gods. At another point he will need a connection with the past, and will be helped by Shinto. And so on. I want to treat religions with great respect, but I hope you see towhee I am coming from. I mention all of this because musicians are often passionate in their beliefs. I am asking for music, and in return you can have a place in the game. You need to feel comfortable with the game's direction. For example, at one point I was considering using some music from a guy who is a fundamentalist Christian - that is, he believes strongly that Jesus is the only way. I don't think he would have been comfortable with his work being used in my game. I intend to show the benefits of Christianity, but I want to show other paths as being equally valid. The only thing I am fundamentalist about is the need for cooperation and mutual understanding. In my game, cooperation and mutual understanding saves the world.

Well that's the story and philosophy of the game in a nutshell. A very big nutshell. Maybe a coconut shell. If you like the sound of it, get involved! If you don't think it's for you, that's OK.

- Chris Tolworthy

[(>o_o)>]

I'd love to donate some tracks to your project, only I'm not that good yet. All I can offer is a bit of advice. There are alot of open source MODs out there, have you considered taking that approach? I know even if they are technically "open source" you may still run into copyright issues, so I would try and contact the artists first and get permission just to be on the safe side. I think alot more musicians than you think may be willing to donate some tracks to you free of charge, you don't need to sound so down on yourself or apologetic for asking.

Also, georg sounds like the ruler of an alien world O_o

[Harbinger]

I'm sure i would disagree on practically every point of philosophy, politics, and religion that you have set up for the premise of your game. I'm 40 this year and have reached totally opposite conclusions from what you seem to espouse.

But i'll still do what i can 'cause i like to see people bring their inspirations to light. What can i say? "I am an artist before i am a man." It's up to you, however, to glean good inspiration from bad.

You may be interested to know that i love composing early English madrigals, and i can think of a couple of my compositions that would go great in the background of a Shakespearean time. I can also fuse Baroque technic with Stravinskyesque polytonality to come up with some great scores for your Dante scenes.

I'm still confused, though, about the game. What does the player DO? Are we talking something like Myst (pages of puzzles), or more like Diablo (realtime character development), Avernum (turn-based RPG), or what?

[tolworthy]

I'm sure i would disagree on practically every point of philosophy, politics, and religion that you have set up for the premise of your game. I'm 40 this year and have reached totally opposite conclusions from what you seem to espouse.

But i'll still do what i can 'cause i like to see people bring their inspirations to light. What can i say? "I am an artist before i am a man." It's up to you, however, to glean good inspiration from bad.

That's great! Before the game is released I want to make sure that both sides of each issue are covered. I want real dialog, not monolog. If I do it well, people should be able to take either side of an argument. Even if the main character ends up believing X, you can still play it and think "poor deluded fool, but I can see why he thinks that." If I make the game too one sided, nobody will buy it.

You may be interested to know that i love composing early English madrigals, and i can think of a couple of my compositions that would go great in the background of a Shakespearean time. I can also fuse Baroque technic with Stravinskyesque polytonality to come up with some great scores for your Dante scenes.

I am VERY interested. I like you already.

I'm still confused, though, about the game. What does the player DO? Are we talking something like Myst (pages of puzzles), or more like Diablo (realtime character development), Avernum (turn-based RPG), or what?

Good question! There are various sub games and one big game that links them all. If the first version is a success I hope to ad more and more sub games. Each sub game is based on a book, and I try to stick as close as possible, given the constraints of the game. So in answer to your question:

Put simply, our hero has certain goals and must find ways to meet them. This means wandering around, talking to people, and solving puzzles as they arise. Each puzzle is based on the actual story in the classic book.

For example, Les Mis starts with Jean Valjean in jail. In the book, he tries to escape. Our hero must help him escape. In the book, the escape attempt fails. In the game this attempt will fail as well, but our hero will learn some important lessons. Next, when Valjean is released, in the book he has to find somewhere to stay. In the game, that is your responsibility, to find him a place. Why? Because you care about his plight. You generally care about the "miserable ones" of revolutionary France and you can see that Valjean is a victim of injustice, and lives depend on him. And so it goes on. Your motive is the motive of the book. Your tasks are the tasks in the book. You are free to wander around and talk to people and try different things, but for the game to progress you need to solve the problems that appear in the book.

Hope this helps.

[tolworthy]

Just an update. The game now has a name - Les Miserables - and a proper web site complete with screenshots etc. This should give a better idea of what to expect.

www.LesMisGame.com

It will be released in December 2007. In February (or thereabouts) I will send an early copy to the principle composer (you know who you are!)

Just in case you were wondering.

[SoundCrafter]

Well, I was thinking about it, but then you set your release date to 2007 instead of 2010. And I was kinda one of those, give me time to improve, guys.  Ask, lol. Anyone can tell you.  :lol:  Lol. All of these composers are a bit intimidating. So I won't join, but I do wish you luck and will buy a copy of Les Miserables as SOON as it comes out...If my CrapComp can run it.

[tolworthy]

Well, I was thinking about it, but then you set your release date to 2007 instead of 2010. ... but I do wish you luck and will buy a copy of Les Miserables as SOON as it comes out...If my CrapComp can run it.

Spoken like a true professional! Most people say "December 2007? Why not sooner?" But from this side of the fence it is very soon indeed. As for computers, as long as your trusty workhorse can run (or emulate) Windows at 1 GHz or so, it should play fine. The game doesn't need a special graphics card or anything like that.

[SoundCrafter]

Spoken like a true professional!

I try.
I also make games (Though not even close to your level. I have yet to break the 2D barrier.) So I know how release dates change. ALOT.  And only 1 ghZ? Wow. I might buy 2! :lol: Good luck.

In this case, you probably wont attract the better trackers because they obviously want to have something in return.

LMfao. How do you think that makes me feel?  :lol:  Just messing.[/quote]