I hesitate to ask, but...

[tolworthy]

I'm creating a game that needs music. All I can offer is credit (i.e. thanks,  praise, and links within the game itself), and I know I sound like a cheapskate who wants something for nothing, but please hear me out.

I've always wanted to play a game that has depth, real depth. A few years ago I got tired of waiting and decided to try and create it. My game is very large in both physical size and scope, and deals with very large topics - philosophy, economics, politics, etc. It includes sub games such as  War and Peace, Les Miserables and Dante's Inferno. I know it sounds ambitious, but I've been working on it for several years and expect to have the first completable version by 2010. My point is that the game (I hope!!) has merit. But I'm doing it in my spare time, and my day job is on minimum wage, so my budget is almost zero.

One day I hope to sell the game, so it won't be freeware and I need to be watertight regarding licensing. But the game will probably be sold very cheaply, so offering a financial cut to everyone who helps out would mean I get no money. Also, the game is so big that keeping track of everyone who can demand five cents a copy would just be a headache. Sorry if this sounds mean or lazy. Basically, I'm trying to use materials that are either freeware or can be paid for cheaply in one go with nothing more to pay.

Anyway, to my point. I've just started adding music. Good music is extremely expensive to license. I've been very lucky finding some good music already, but I really need more. And preferably something with a common style, such as music by the same person.

What I would love to do, my holy grail, is to find someone who creates music for the joy of creating it, and would be happy to have it in my game for a small price (and I mean small!) plus the satisfaction of having their name featured prominently in the game.

I know it's a lot to ask, and serious musicians will probably ignore this as an attempt to rip them off. But are there any amateurs out there who share my vision of wanting to make a great game, but are willing to let me use their music for a nominal fee plus the publicity?

I guess if this thread gets zero replies I'll have my answer.

Thanks for reading.

- Chris Tolworthy

Screenshots etc (I'll be adding a lot more at the end of the month)
http://www.zaksite.co.uk/chris/chris.htm

More information: http://www.hungrysoftware.com/forums/go/index.cgi?group=sludgegames&viewlast=10&viewdays=240&messageID=12
If that link doesn't work, go to http://www.hungrysoftware.com/ and choose forums -> games forum -> quest for answers

[Squirrel Havoc]

I can't really help you, but i wanted to jump in and say atleast you have some work done, so you might have a shot. Most musicians wont jump on a project that's still in the planning stages, but since you have put years of work into it, you might get lucky

[LPChip]

The only thing I can add to this topic is the following:

The cheaper you get something, the worse its quality will be. In this case, you probably wont attract the better trackers because they obviously want to have something in return. Im currently making music for my own gamestudio, so even if you offered me a great deal, I'd have to turn it down due to lack of my own time.

I know like no one else, how important game music is. Therefor reconsidder your above proposal. You seem to be willing to put a project down that can have great potential. Don't cut down on the costs by offering nothing in return for some music.

[Squirrel Havoc]

The only thing I can add to this topic is the following:

The cheaper you get something, the worse its quality will be. In this case, you probably wont attract the better trackers because they obviously want to have something in return. Im currently making music for my own gamestudio, so even if you offered me a great deal, I'd have to turn it down due to lack of my own time.

I know like no one else, how important game music is. Therefor reconsidder your above proposal. You seem to be willing to put a project down that can have great potential. Don't cut down on the costs by offering nothing in return for some music.

Not everyone is bogged down with a life though. Most people are, but people like me arent. Of couse, my music isn't good enough for a game, but there are other people who have very little else to do, or atleast a lot of free time, and I'm sure they are talented and would love to get their name in the gaming community

[tolworthy]

The cheaper you get something, the worse its quality will be. In this case, you probably won't attract the better trackers because they obviously want to have something in return.

True enough, in general, though so far I've been very lucky. I have an old disk of licensed buy-out music that's quite acceptable, and I've used it extensively. The user license is incredibly generous, but the company went out of business some years ago. The two facts are probably related. The company offewred good music at very low prices, and went bust. Which cupports common sense and what you said, any serious musician has to charge reasonable rates if they want to survive. But I can still hope.

I've also paid for three tracks from big name buy-out companies - tracks that were just essential to my game so I really had no choice but to pay the going rate. But with a game my size, three tracks are just the tip of the iceberg. Beyond that, I've made extensive use of the mutopia project (public domain classics in very basic form), and recorded my own sound effects with tape recorder and synthesizer, but I lack the skill to do more than that. If I have to I can make do with the five hours or so of variable music I already have. But I am always looking out for ways to add something better.

The most important thing that I must emphasize is that, because of the nature of my game, I cannot and wil not try to compete with current video games on either graphics or sound. With their multi-million pound budgets they will always look and sound much better than anything I can do. But where they are weak, and where I CAN compete, is on the ideas. My game will have much more depth than most games, and will be aimed at a different market (people who like to read or ponder, not people who like to race around shooting things). So I'm not looking for the next Beethoven, just something that sounds better than silence. And someone with more composing talent than me, which leaves the possibilities wide open.

Which brings up the topic of quality. To create a piece of stand-alone music that sounds great is very difficult. But to create a piece of game music that sounds great is a more interesting proposition. Given the right story and images, even a simple tune - even a monotone drone - can have a powerful effect.

Anyay, thanks for the quick reply. This is a great board and I'm lucky to have found it.

[Squirrel Havoc]

Maybe I can help. What style of music are you looking for? And any special file format? Size restrictions? I need more info before I can try something

[tolworthy]

Of couse, my music isn't good enough for a game

I disagree! Or rather, it probably depends on the game.

I just downloaded your track "Genesis" and it would fit perfectly with several scenes in my game. I have one section based on Jules Verne's Time Machine. In my game, the user can visit the distant past, the distant future, or anywhere in between. (Actually they are limited to about 42 scenes from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch).  In several early scenes, the user is basically wandering around in a vast empty world where primitive life has not begun, but momentous changes are happening at the scale of geologic time. Genesis would be perfect for a couple of those places.

Or your track "Nowhere Near Earth" has a great eerie and restrained sound. My game allows the user to visit 240 different locations in space, each reflecting a different science fiction theme. I can think of at least three places where "Nowhere Near Earth" would create just the right mood. The voice-over and the playful tone remind me of something from Kubrick's 2001. I can imagine the user wandering around a deserted spaceship listening to this music.

My biggest need is for ambient music for very unusual locations. Space is one example. Another example is the ancient world. Or underground caves. Something eerie, even a distant drone with the occasional echo or ethnic drumbeat would fit in. Sometimes I am seriously held back bu the lack of anything that would fit. For example, if I get time I want to add a section of the game based on ancient Rome, but so far I only have one track that could possiby be suitable for Rome, and it's less than a minute long.

I will probably have to buy some equipment and learn to make ambient music myself, but you guys are years ahead of me. With practice I could probably learn to make generic ambient bedding music, but I would not have the talent to add the playful or interesting parts. You are really too modest.

[Squirrel Havoc]

Well I can give it a shot, I've never made songs for any specific purpose except for fun or learning. Although someone did email me once asking for permission to use Genesis in a game. All I ask is that I can get credit with my modplug name, and not my real name. And I can't promise to make a song that would work, nor can I even promise to even finish anything, I get frustrated easily, and I've had a lack of inspiration lately. Does it have to be a mod? You said something about dynamic music or something that changes when something happens. That can ususally only be done in a mod. If I can do MP3 files, then I can use my synth and bass guitar, which would help. Oh yeah, I wouldn't ask for much money  

Also, you REALLY shouldn't rely on me to do most or all of the music, I churn out songs about 2-4 times a year. I'll check out the links you posted.

EDIT: I checked out the screen shots, wow! I love the cartoon look, along with lots of color and detail, which usually isnt needed in a cartoon looking game. I read the forum post, I learned some interesting stats, but nothing I didnt know already. Check out all my music if you can, and let me know if you think I would be of much help on the project.

[tolworthy]

MaybeWhat style of music are you looking for?

Ambient is best, but almost anything will be gratefully used (and credited!) My game is designed to cover a very large range of concepts. For example, the aline worlds section includes a huge range. One world is dead, another world is a big theme park, and another world is run by advanced god-like beings. Whatever the style, there's a place somewhere.

My biggest needs are:

ambient ancient Rome.

ambient ancient Egypt, Babylon, and Sumer.

Gregorian chants - monks singing plainsong or just wailing.

anything suggesting outer space or an alien dimension

Please note that this doesn't have to be accurate - genuine ancient music was probably very boring! But something suggesting pre-industrial streets, or deserts, or tents, or great walled cities, or endless plains, or toiling in the fields, or the hint of distant trumpets, or pan pipes, or the songs of slaves, or whistling wind, or thoughtful chords, etc. Most of the game is spent walking between epic locations and talking to people.

I must stress that I am flexible. The simples way to understand it is to imagine Britney Spears mixed with a corporate jingle, then imagine something as far away from that as possible.

Or anything with low notes and a feeling of depth. Light hearted or upbeat is fine, but it needs at least a hint of something bigger and deeper. Your Genesis and Nowhere oin earth are good examples - normally that style would be too upbeat, but you have a strong undercurrent of something deeper or more throughtful, so the upbeat style becaomes a plus.

Or anything at all - I have 600 locations to choose from.

MaybeAnd any special file format?

OGG, mono, at the lowest comfortable bit rate. But I can convert them myself - any format will do. The important thing is a format that preserves the tone you wanted. When I played your music in MODPlug, it sounded great. But when I exported it to MIDI, I lost a lot of the resonance and depth. So probably anything except MIDI.

MaybeSize restrictions?

At present my smallest tracks are around 40 seconds and 70 K (in mono, OGG format) but that is really too short and the quality is not great. Each file loops, and if the user spends several minutes in the same location, it migt get repetitive. Of course it depends on the track - my rushing water track is even shorter, because water always sounds the same anyway.

My longest tracks are round 6 minutes and 6 MB (compressed in OGG, mono).

My ideal track length is between 1 to 6 minutes, but again it depends on the nature of the sound effect or music.

MaybeI need more info before I can try something

I've added a lot more screenshots to my web site - I hope that will help. http://www.zaksite.co.uk/chris/chris.htm

Please note that those screens hots are only a tiny sample. And I have not added many of the alien or ancient scenes yet, aprtly because I will adapt them to the music.

If you are willing to help, I am extremely grateful! If you need it I could send you a copy of the work in progress so far. I live in Britain so it might take a week or two to arrive. You would of course get prominent credit in the game. And if by some freak of luck I ever did make a ton of money on it (when it is released after 2010) then I could send you a cut, but I don't want to make firm promises at this stage that I cannot keep - who knows what the future will bring.

[tolworthy]

It struck me that, rather than offer tiny and remote hints of money, how would you like payment in kind? If you like I could immortalise you in the game.

I have a number of different planets based on different sci-fi themes. What if one of the planets was ruled by someone called Squirrel Havoc? Just let me know what he/she would look like, personality, and any other details and I'll bring Squirrel Havoc to life. SH could be a pan-galactic megastar, or mysterios but extremely cool loner, or commander of a vast empire, or starving artist, or anything you like. Provide as many or as few details as you like, and I'll do the rest.

What do you think?

And the same goes for anyone else who is willing to allow one or more of their tracks in my game. It's the easy route to making your dreams come true. In a virtual sense at least.

[Squirrel Havoc]

It struck me that, rather than offer tiny and remote hints of money, how would you like payment in kind? If you like I could immortalise you in the game.

I have a number of different planets based on different sci-fi themes. What if one of the planets was ruled by someone called Squirrel Havoc? Just let me know what he/she would look like, personality, and any other details and I'll bring Squirrel Havoc to life. SH could be a pan-galactic megastar, or mysterios but extremely cool loner, or commander of a vast empire, or starving artist, or anything you like. Provide as many or as few details as you like, and I'll do the rest.

Heh, Squirrel Havoc does sound like a ruler on an alien world. That's pretty cool. I have no idea what he would look like, what are you using to make the graphics? I mean are they like 3D and you model them and then render them in realtime, or are they 2D bitmaps that animate like a caroon? I have some experience with a few free 3D programs that I can use to make bitmaps, maybe I can model a huge alien overlord (although I've never done that before).

[tolworthy]

what are you using to make the graphics? I mean are they like 3D and you model them and then render them in realtime, or are they 2D bitmaps that animate like a cartoon?

I start with photos or 3D models to get the effect I want, then draw from it. So I get a rough sketchy style but the overall look and proportions are (hopefully) right. I'm going for a sketchy style because otherwise the game will never be finished (there are 600 scenes and I am only one guy!) But I do want it to look "right" hence the use of photos etc.

I have some experience with a few free 3D programs that I can use to make bitmaps, maybe I can model a huge alien overlord (although I've never done that before).

Definitely. The beauty of the 2D and sketch approach is just about anything is possible. Photos can be adapted, 3D can be adapted, and anything else can just be drawn. I'm a reasonably OK artist - good enough to fill in the gaps, anyway.

My email address is tolworthy at hotmail dot com if you do want to send anything. Regarding what you said about time and output, there's no pressure on either. I don't expect the game to be finished before 2010, so any music or images I get are a bonus, but I am in no position to make any demands or pressure anyone.

[Harbinger]

I can compose anything, and i LOVE doing it. I would charge practically nothing (except fair compensation if you make it big with this work), and you'd get VERY good music.

However, there are serial caveats here: my name must go with the sound (y'know like in the credits); and even if you'd agree with that, i must know what my music is going to be associated with before i give it to whomever. I have very high standards as to to who "uses" my talent, and to what it will be associated with. Music to listen to while you kill cops or sacrifice to an evil god? I'll pass...

My qualifications might seem minimal: i've never been published and don't want to be, i have very little scholastic musical training (that's because everything i learned i learned on my own), and i'm not willing to just sell my music to anyone with a checkbook. My main interest (at least right now) is electronic music (trance, techno, etc -- altho you'd never catch me in one of those clubs :? ), but i can compose everything (and well) from Italian Baroque concertos a la Vivaldi to techno-industrial punk rap (think NIN). Not only can, but love to.

If you think i can help, PM me and we'll talk. I have no obligations nor expectations.

[Squirrel Havoc]

I really hope he picks you, because I was going to work on some music for his project, but I cant seem to get anything done

[Matt Hartman]

Tolworthy,

You can keep me in your list of contacts.

I understand that sometimes in life we all need to catch a break.

I respect the fact that you want to design a game with real depth. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent in my own life wondering why game developers don't develop a game with depth, as opposed to a game that soothes the cheapest of thrills and impulses. (I probably just answered my own question)

Regardless, I applaud your vision.

You're going to need a composer that can match wit with the theme of your game. You need someone diverse and someone who is a visionary like yourself.

Normally, contracting a composer with the qualities above would mean you having to shell out some serious cash.

As it were, I'm in search of gaining some serious credits. I would do it for the credit and royalties. Which means you don't fork out any upfront.

That's the best I can throw on the table at this point.

When you're ready to move on to materialization, contact me, I can definitely help you in the capacity that you envision and more.