[discussion] Parents, children and sound music

[Louigi Verona]

Okay, so I want to share a situation that I have faced several times already. Perhaps some of you have had a similar experience and we can share insights into this.

Each time I visit my parents or we meet or they come to my house, I of course love to tell them what work I am engaged in, tell them about music or software or things I've done. And almost always I have had not much support from them. Each time they either do not understand the intentions (for instance, my parents strongly oppose free software and no matter how many times I've explained they still think it means gratis) or interpret them in a very unusual fashion.

One of the main topics of argument is my music. Specifically, my dad does not like any of the sound music I do and tells me to not call myself a composer because I am not one. He says that I am a sound engineer and that what I do is not creative at all and anyone can do that. His reaction to me showing him the random play function of Tape Loops was very heated and he said that anyone can do such music and that it is not creativity at all and more over - it is not music at all. Any my attempts to speak to him about sound music and note based music have failed to reach him.

I was wondering about these things:

1. Do you care whether your parents support you in what you do? Even if they do not understand what it's all about?

2. How would you address the creativity issue of sound music? What, in your opinion, is it closer to - artistic expression or just sound engineering?



My own opinion on the second is this: either broaden the definition of music or else indeed call it something else - like Brian Eno suggests, music painting.
I however absolutely disagree on it being uncreative. It does strongly change the role of the artist, either making it smaller or just changing the subject of artist's application. But to me all sound music is creative. It is not background music - at least I never view it as such. It can be background just like any great composer's music can be put as a background if you like.
Working with sound does suggest that one is just manipulating something without actually creating it, but I think this comes from the fact that we are used to think that a recording must be something a person actually played with his hands - an instrument being recorded or whatever. But a music painter works with material (look at this post). And so this material should be regarded just like material, not standalone pieces which are "used" to the advantage of the artist.

[uncloned]

My parents never appreciated my heavy metal music as you can imagine.

But..... when I wrote classical music my father was able to appreciate it. That's because he listens to classical music. So my suggestion is to write a piece or two in a style he can appreciate. Then perhaps he will recognized you are a composer.

As for free software....

my parents never agreed with all of my ideas....

[Saga Musix]

my parents never agreed with all of my ideas....

Well, as if that's something new. It was like that 2000 years ago as well.

[uncloned]

I'm not saying I'm unique here....

In fact I was trying to say LV's situation is not new at all.

[Louigi Verona]

Yeah, I guessed it is pretty common. And my dad does appreciate my early stuff. But sometimes it does sadden me.

[uncloned]

Lv to be honest an expectation that everyone will like everything is a bit unrealistic.

I am certain I will go to my grave without my father acknowledging how well I played Iron Man.

Since my mom is dead it aint coming from her.

However my peers thought I did a grand job. C'est la vie.

[Louigi Verona]

It is unrealistic. But people want a lot of unrealistic stuff, don't they? I do get a lot of support from my fiancée. You know, she doesn't care much about free software, but she supports me. I value this support a lot.

In the end, I wouldn't say I care THAT much. It's just that sometimes I want to be able to tell something to my parents and not get a negative response, you know.

[uncloned]

I strongly suggest focusing on the positive in your life.

You could be herding goats in subsaharen Africa and not have an instrument let alone a internet connected computer.

The world is full of unmet expectations and we all have to learn to deal with that reality.

[arinlares]

The best thing I can think of is to not try to sway the opinions of your parents, or any who don't support you.  When I started making music, about a year ago, I thought anybody could do it, but quickly learned otherwise.  I run into the same thing with my older brother, so I just don't talk about it with him.  I at least grabbed my twin brother's interest, but he doesn't have the patience to learn a tracker. (I know, it's not all that hard once you get the hang of it).

For 1, I'd say it matters a little bit that they care, at least enough to be slightly interested in what I'm doing, if not exactly how it works.  My dad asked about how I do it, and understood the concept of VSTs, and their hosts, fortunately enough.

For 2, I count anything that has a designed rhythm and melody, repetitive or not, music.  It's expressive of the current mood of the composer (Yes, I used "composer"), which results in varying sounds in the particular artist, or in one song, if done over a day or two.  Sure, if you decide to express yourself musically via a computer, you are, to some extent, a sound engineer, but it's all toward the goal of self-expression.

As far as getting a positive response from your parents, uncloned's approach might be the best way.

[Sam_Zen]

Hmm. you're quite OT with your second item about artistic expression and/or sound-engineering, LV..

As far as parents are concerned, I can't address both of them anymore, but they had the post-war drive
to get a better position for their children, with a better education.
They heard from the teachers about my talents musically, so they encouraged my developments in this field.

I had the 'wrong' instruments, like recorder and violin lessons, some years later I started electronics.
They almost never liked what I made, but that was not the point to them.

[psishock]

LV, you've opened a discussion about one of the most differing thing: the Taste.
Parents have their own too, they are normal people, my mother listened to pop music on her younger time, my father did some acoustic rock music covers with his friends, if i can remember right they put together some random band and played on some local shows too. He has a good affinity for most melodic and peaceful guitar stuff and focused every of his attention and musical love to it, but dislike "mechanical" electronic music for that reason. To him, setting up a computer, editing a few samples and messing with a tracker sounds very much high tech sound engineering. But my mother had the electronic beat and the constant variation of new invented sounds "in her blood", so she's open to anything similar, even liked most of my recent stuff admitted that they are very catchy and dynamical, but she still prefers the easy listening pop melodies and vocals over any technical pieces. My little sister prefers that commercial punk rock that she hears on every radio and with friends, my other sister prefers slow and chilly stuff, like world music example when she draws. That is very much ok, you cant just expect the peoples to appreciate every kind of stuff. There is a chance that you would not like if your son will start rapping on some trashy beat with his friends, and call it very professional music, or if he would throw some random paint drops on the canvas in 15 minute and call it valuable modern art. Everyone has a taste, someone can accept wider range, others are satisfied with more narrowed views, we are people after all.

so for your actual questions:

1. Do you care whether your parents support you in what you do? Even if they do not understand what it's all about?

It's not their "job" to do that, only to get you ready for living, anything else comes from their good will. If they want to support you, it's their decision, it would not be fair if i would expect anything like this, forcefully from them. Lets be fair and reasonable with parents.

2. How would you address the creativity issue of sound music? What, in your opinion, is it closer to - artistic expression or just sound engineering?

creativity don't have to involve sound engineering at all, people can put together very creative stuff in trackers example and may have no clue about sound engineering at all. Expression surely, but artistic or not, now that if a very complicated question that is not worthy do discuss. I don't even like when people defend their work behind the word: art, because i don't believe in it.
If you put 3 cups together to not fall down, is it an art? If you do it with 100.000 that is more like it? And.. if you do it with 55? I mean what will define the art border behind the expressions, and where it lies?
Same type of questions can be asked on every type of self expressing actions, like music. Art is an invented word for expressions that are massively approved and appreciated by people.

[bvanoudtshoorn]

1. Do you care whether your parents support you in what you do? Even if they do not understand what it's all about?

Well, I certainly care. My parents are very supportive of my music, even if they don't actually like half of it. But to be honest, even if they didn't, I would still write it -- for me, music isn't so much about whether other people like it so much as whether I like it. I write music that I like to listen to, and in the act of writing it, I have fun and become more relaxed.

2. How would you address the creativity issue of sound music? What, in your opinion, is it closer to - artistic expression or just sound engineering?

I'm with Psi on this one -- there's no clearly defined boundary between the two. My personal view on 'art' is that art is for the artist. I completely disagree with much of post-modernist theory that suggests that the reader/viewer/audience's interpretation of the art is more important the artist's intention. From my personal experience, art is, ultimately, a selfish production -- art is produced from somewhere within oneself, and as such must necessarily reflect something of one's own nature. The music I write says something about me, and it is characterised by my personality, experience, emotional state, and so on.

If the artist considers something art, then it is art -- to them at least. There are many pieces of 'art' which I personally don't recognise as such, but which the artist (and others) do -- and that's their prerogative. Because artistic expression is so very subjective, you can't really hope for much more than tolerance.

[rncekel]

About my parents, my father disliked all kind of music, not only mine. And my mother didn't want an artist in the family, she preferred an engineer.
But there are also sons. Mine do like my music, even they helped me to put the title to one of my pieces, and I can say that the youngest is my first fan. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be music oriented, but they prefer making comics and writing tales.

So, I never cared about my parents opinion on my music, but I'm happy with my sons support.

And for me, music is mainly an artistic expression. Of course I admire those wonderful sound engineers that manage big sounds, but that's not my choice.

[PabloLuna]

My father forced me to learn guitar when I was a kid, so except for listening music, I hated music.  Things changed when I started using Modplug Tracker.  I got to compose some music with counterpoint.  I also have been conducting workshops using Modplug Tracker for a short time.  Some music I made with MPT was part of a show that was presented in London.

And guess what.  My father has not listened a single song of mine.

But I am not making music for him.  I am making it for myself.
Sometimes parents never learned to appreciate what their sons do, because they were not taught by their parents.

Do you think I care if he does not like it?  The music I like is different than the music he likes, so you may guess what would happen anyway.  He belongs to a different audience.

Do you think I make heavy metal or something?  Nope.

There are other fields were my father and I may have a good time.  I do not need to prove anything to him.

[Nahkranoth]

@PabloLuna: I wish somebody forced me to learn guitar when I was young enough. It's crap when you're near 30 and still don't know shit about them notes.
Just curious, how many of you guys can imagine what the feck you gonna hear when you seeing a pattern in MPT?

[EDIT]And about parents:
They say they like what I'm doing, that's all I need to know, but it doesn't really matter I guess. The only negative stuff I heard was from my wife: "It's boring, it's all the same over and over again." But then she liked that track I made for bv's compo. Go figure