Composer or Musician

[Sam_Zen]

This is caused by some small discussions I encountered in several threads about this controversy.
Because they were mostly off-topic at the moment, so to avoid, I prefer this way.

Edit by mod: Fixed title so it doesn't contain [ Poll ] twice.

[rncekel]

I think this is a little ambigous, although may be intentionally so. What does exactly means "musician"? Many people identify this as "player": someone who plays an instrument and makes concerts. But it could be also considered with a very general meaning as someone who makes music (playing or not). I don't know which intention had Sam in mind, but I will take it as the first meaning, so I will say that I am a composer. I was a musician some years ago, but even when I returned, I decided never to play instruments again (well, except in holidays).

[LPChip]

I define "a mucisian" as someone that makes music in one way or the other. For that matter, I also considder a DJ to be a mucisian.

But since we arrange our sounds in such way to create music (atleast I do) I considder myself to be a composer too.

If you'd only use drumloops and pre-recorded samples with melodyloops in them etc, I'd question if it can be called a composer.

[mikosoft]

I agree with rncekel's opinion.
As I see it, a musician is someone who plays an instrument but doesn't have to make any own composition.
A composer is someone, who creates music but doesn't have to be able play any instrument.

Someone who tracks is then first of all a composer. But as far as I now many trackers can play some instrument as well so they might be musicians too. In fact, I think there are really a very few composers that can't play any instrument. A composer should be aware of at least basic music theory and learning pure theory without practical application (playing instrument) is a pain. And many learn basic theory alongside with learning to play an instrument.

Concluding all of that it's hard to just say that someone is strictly a composer or a musician. In theory, someone who tracks is a composer but I think it should be viewed in a bit different way: someone who is tracking is a composer in that very moment (I think this is called "temporal resolution"  :lol: ).

[LPChip]

According to WikiPedia:

A musician is a person who plays or composes music. Musicians can be classified by their role in creating or performing music:

A singer (or vocalist) uses his or her voice as an instrument.
An instrumentalist plays a musical instrument.
Both singer and instrumentalist can be improvisers, who create real time music.
Composers and songwriters write music.
A conductor coordinates a musical ensemble.
Musicians may also dance or produce choreography. The concept of the musician and the status of the musician in society varies from culture to culture.

Musicians can be distinguished as amateur or professional. Professional musicians are paid musicians. They may work freelance, enter into a contract with a studio or record label, be employed by a professional ensemble such as a symphony orchestra, or be employed by an institution such as a church or business (such as a bar). An amateur musician is one for which music is a pastime and not an occupation

[Waxhead]

Well I classified myself as "something else" - I don't compose very much music and it's been rather long since I created something new. One of the things I'm struggling with is that I for some reason always seem to create a "skinny" mix. As I see it many people are technically good at making music and also creating a nice full sound but IMHO some of them seems to lack the abillity to create something original. I would like to call many of the musicians today imitators (eurotrance is a good example IMHO). Don't missunderstand me - most of us base our music on something we have heard before so all of us are in some way "copying" others more or less. Also I like to disagree with the wikipedia definition. I think there really is something called semi-pro as well, and I think that perhaps many of those so called proffesionals should be put into that cathegory sometimes  

[Sam_Zen]

Nothing ambiguous. And I'm pleased my curiosity pays off. Interesting.
The first meaning indeed. What would you fill in on your ID-card as your profession ?
Nevertheless, it's not simple yes-no. As mentioned, a guitar-pleyer can write an occasional song, while the song-writer can play an additional keyboard-part in a song-recording. That's why I made 4 options.

I strongly agree with Waxhead about the Wiki definition, just not correct. Although for a different reason.
The term 'professional' is not that crucial. The term has being misused by relating it to 'making money with it' or 'having huge success'. I think it's more a matter of applying serious craftmanship, no matter how the world reacts.
This Wiki-definition is not correct, because only valid for the term 'Music Maker', not for 'Musician'. A musician is just a category then. Replace 'Music Maker' with 'Sound Artist' maybe.

2 Waxhead
I consider people who try to imitate things from others as amateurs. Hobby-people.
But never mind thinking about trying to be original in some way. It's not relevant.
Start from zero, try to be yourself, setting your own choices, imagine your own sounds.
Nothing wrong with 'copying' once in a while, but if so, copy the techniques, not the style.
Analyzing the codes in a pattern.

[Waxhead]

Sam_Zen: Amen to all of the above

[xaimus]

I play a violin and mash away at my keyboard, trying to write crappy melodies and riffs down in modplug.  I chose "both".

[PPH]

I voted for "composer", but I wonder why so many people speak of musicians as being "players". For me, a "musician" is someone who makes music. Therefore, a composer is a musician too. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't look the word up, neither in English nor in any other language. But if musician means "player", it doesn't make any sense to me. Still, if the question was "composer" or "player", I think it's quite obvious that a tracker is a composer, unless, of course, he doesn't compose. In which case, I'd say a tracker is an "arranger". A tracker is by no means a player.

[Waxhead]

I don't actually think this discussion will lead anywhere. We are basically discussing the difference between a performer and a creator here. A performer can ofcourse be creative the same way a creator can perform so you might as well ask the diffrence between a ball and a sphere. It all boils down to: "it depends..."  

[Harbinger]

I was never trained as a child to play music (except for a couple of Band classes in elementary school), so i can't really PLAY very well. However, i've learned that my talent is not in performance but in creation. I've learned i can make most people "see" exactly what i envision. So i'm a composer, but because i don't have the skill to play any instrument reasonably well, i can't say i'm a musician.

Most people, when they hear the word "musician," think of someone who can play something musically, and are probably not going to consider a composer as a musician in the connotative sense. I'm inclined to think, however, that a "musician" is anyone able of producing designed sound (i.e,  music).

I agree with Sam_Zen on every count except one. Be careful, my old friend, about referring to imitators as amateurs. I get your gist, but there is a talent to copying (at least for the purpose of developing or improving). Most "artists" (VERY loose term) are not going to imitate for the purpose of being exactly like someone or something else; they are simply taking someone else's artwork and giving their own style or personality to it. It doesn't happen all the time, but sometimes an original production or even idea isn't done "right" the first time, but someone may come along who takes that exact same creation (hopefully not as their own) and does it in such a way as to make it bloom. I'm sure you can think of a few examples.
Like you, i tend to condescend (for lack of a better word) to samplers and many rappers, because they take riffs and cadences from someone or somewhere else, instead of creating their own, and turn something that was fine in its original work into garbage (it's also why i hate commercials that use songs we used to hear on the radio). But if they IMPROVE on the sample and it makes me want to hear it again because of its aesthetic appeal, then imitation can be a good thing, and i might argue, almost as good as if they had created it themselves.
However, when it comes down to it, i'd rather associate with inventors than developers. :wink:

To Waxhead:
I've had this discussion with instrumentalists before, who believe that when they play their instrument and add in their own embellishments or play in their own style, that, even for just a moment, they are in fact a composer. Creation on-the-fly while performing is a craft unto itself, but it is not the same creative effort that a composer possesses. It hits you when you sit and cogitatively attempt to write an entire musical opus (even if it's only a commercial jingle); then you realize the true difference between a composer and a performer. They trade in the same commodity, but they're worlds apart.

[Sam_Zen]

2 Harbinger
I am careful about this, because imitating is something else as copying material and developing it for one's own way.
This is valid for style as for material.
I've no problem in using a complete sampled riff in a tracker either, as long as it's used as material, not as a means to imitate something.

[Matt Hartman]

hmmm.

Should be pretty clear.

In a studio type setting, a musician is labeled as a "studio-musician", not a studio composer. (which does exist)

Their role is to play an instrument reading someone else's music to an explicit degree.

Take Hans Zimmer, a well known composer. He constructs his compositions through a synth and sequencer (much like we do around here) but the final output is played by a live orchestra of seasoned musicians to any various scale. I'm not even sure if he arranges his own music into notation.

In this sense, though he can very well play the keyboard and understand the properties of each instrument that makes up the whole orchestra, he is still labeled a composer.

Most composers can play at least one instrument. You don't need to be a seasoned player of any instrument in order to be able to construct a quality song. Allthough it will only make it easier, it's not a must. What you do need however is a great set of ears and a little intuition. Some inspiration doesn't hurt either. This is typically enough to get you by.

I find that a lot of professional musicians in many industries have a hard time putting an originally composed song together. Though they are exceptionally well tuned with their instrument/s, that doesn't always mean they know how to apply their chops in a self compositional application.

Usaully for both states, it's a bit of a trade off that comes with just being exposed to a lot of music. It's hard to compose and not know at least a thing or two of how an instrument or sound fuses together to make a decent harmonic flow. It's almost ridiculous to play an instrument on a masterful level and not understand music theory, melody, chord progression, timing, etc.  

On a personal level, if I had chose to apply myself as a musician, I'd probably be a damn good one by now. Instead, my main interest rested in becoming a composer because my creativity is naturally stronger than my dexterity as a musician due to some physical limitations and lack of interest.

I enjoy expressing myself through music composition much more than  being able to play an instrument on a masterful level.

Yet, I still tinker away at several instruments to releive some stress or just for plain fun. Sometimes to hash out some new ideas for a new peice.  

I'm sure a lot of people around here can express the same interest.

[residentgrey]

I can be in the same boat as MH, I can't play any instruments though. I will be startin on the guitar soon when i get off my butt and do it. But i do think of plenty of tunes and then figure out if there are any existing instruments that fit the texture i feel would be best for that role, if not i synth them.

Man i can't wait till the comp gets rebuilt, i wil be cranking out some mad tunez!!!!