Using VST3 plug-ins with OpenMPT development

[Saga Musix]

Yeah, they wouldn't listen to me either. The only thing that will work is if we all do it. Which is why I have a bit of hope for CLAP to eventually replace VST3 as the go-to format for new plugins, but we'll see. It's definitely more likely at this point that OpenMPT gains CLAP or LV2 support than VST3.

[herodotas]

I'm afraid that World War III is more real, than CLAP.

[Exhale]

how does element have vst3 but we dont? what does getting vst3 entail exactly? If it is money to get a licence, maybe we should let people know who use ompt so we can all donate more. vst3 is just getting bigger and bigger, we have to get it at some time.

[Saga Musix]

It has nothing to do with money. VST3 can be either licensed under a proprietary license agreement with Steinberg, or through the GPL license, but the GPL license is not compatible with OpenMPT's more permissive BSD license - it would essentially force OpenMPT's code to be released under the GPL license as well. It would be technically possible to use the proprietary license together with OpenMPT as far as I understand, but I'd rather not sign contracts with Steinberg that they can change at their will at any point in time (as they tried before to make VST3 developers stop developing VST2s by forbidding them through their contract to use the VST2 SDK).

[Exhale]

It has nothing to do with money. VST3 can be either licensed under a proprietary license agreement with Steinberg, or through the GPL license, but the GPL license is not compatible with OpenMPT's more permissive BSD license - it would essentially force OpenMPT's code to be released under the GPL license as well.

What about making a gpl add on, ... so something that is entirely separate from ompt, it is its own little bit of software, with a separate installation process etc, but it is kinda a thing you install that makes changes to your ompt... idk just spitballing here on how we might be able to press the erect middle finger againt the faces of the people responsible for all that crap.
So it wouldnt be a vst, or anything like that, just a separate 'add on' that can be installed by anyone who wants it, made entirely gpl, it finds your ompt folder/s and adds on vst3 support.
would that still leave us vulnerable to steinberg?
Another way to look at it or lable it would be like a modification or mod for ompt.

[manx]

What about making a gpl add on,

That would be legally possible.

HOWEVER:

• First, OpenMPT needs to get an abstract plugin interface at all. This is something that I would love to see anyway, as it would cleanup interfacing with current (VST2, DMO, custom tracker plugins) (and future (CLAP, LV2/DSSI/LADSPA, ...)) different plugin architectures. Currently, each plugin architecture is somewhat hard-coded ad-hoc, which is far from optimal.
• A proper abstract plugin interface will also maybe require or encourage a rewrite of the Plugin Bridge, working on the same API level as the abstract plugin interface.
• If any functionality ever gets added to that abstract plugin interface that is in any way VST3-specific, or derived from VST3, or makes particularly interfacing with VST3 simpler, this would make OpenMPT immediately GPL3.
• I will not touch any GPL3 code at all (for various reasons), so if OpenMPT gets VST3 support in any way, shape, or form without a strictly separately developed abstract plugin interface, OpenMPT looses 1 of its current 2 maintainers.
• This all would be a huge amount of work.

[Exhale]

3. If any functionality ever gets added to that abstract plugin interface that is in any way VST3-specific, or derived from VST3, or makes particularly interfacing with VST3 simpler, this would make OpenMPT immediately GPL3.
4.I will not touch any GPL3 code at all (for various reasons), so if OpenMPT gets VST3 support in any way, shape, or form without a strictly separately developed abstract plugin interface, OpenMPT looses 1 of its current 2 maintainers.
5.This all would be a huge amount of work.

The last thing I think anyone wants is our beloved ompt's code to become more restrictive which is why I suggested something entirely different, a separate bit of software, an add-on or a mod that isnt technically a part of modplug... so modplug stays the same, except maybe the other changes you suggested, the ones that are strictly essential but will have their own functions in base modplug, and then the add on / mod will have all the legal trouble if shit hits the fan as a separate bit of its own gpl software... and thus hopefully you would remain to work on the more permissive licenced ompt while whomever is brave enough to take on the mod / add-on can do so... maybe there could be a bit of code in modplug to make something like this more smooth, but it wouldnt necessarily have to have any of the vst3 code in it, surely it could be more general than that sort of like a plug socket to plug the mod into.

I am just busy looking up both licences and I will read through them, I am not a lawyer, but yeah I have heard people have a problem with the gpl3 licence not just here, but I think I have heard similar thoughts elsewhere, although I havent really heard much because I cannot program or understand law all that much even though every human is forcefully obligated to understand some law.
Either way I am hoping that my idea sort of paints a loophole we can hopefully exploit... I mean all sorts of software has add ons that arent the same licence as the base software, like photoshop has effects and stuff you can download that are made entirely by different people than adobe, some free some paid... minecraft has mods of various kinds, some free some paid and on and on... the lists are endless. They cant expect a mod / add on for software to force the base software into a new licence.

And yeah, I most certainly dont think a change like this would be anything but "a huge amount of work"... my only hope here is to put a sign board up for another rout that might be possible for those who are willing to take that road, a little bit of hope for those who would like to use vst3 in modplug to dream of at least. Maybe open a debate about if the base software's licence isnt touched, and a mod / add-on is created under its own licence, people like you, who I have full trust have perfectly respectable and legitimate objections wont have to compromise morals so that something that is looking like it might be essential can have a way to become a part of the ompt project, even as a separate project.

The way I picture it, you download modplug as normal, install it the way it is now... then if you want vst3 you download and install the vst3 mod, it makes a separate directory in your modplug folder, in which is contains everything it needs and, although when you are in modplug it looks like you are just opening vst3s like you would any other vst, any code that is needed for that to happen is executed outside of what is actually modplug.
I think I am making sense here... idk... I mean I have tried making my own mods for minecraft before, and those are just jar files if I remember correctly, but I used a bit of software that made the mod for me, I just used a visual interface. But that jar file wasnt minecraft, it was a totally separate and entirely optional thing to add to minecraft, and mojang could certainly not be held accountable for what that jar file would do.

[Saga Musix]

The way I picture it, you download modplug as normal, install it the way it is now... then if you want vst3 you download and install the vst3 mod

That "VST3 mod" could simply be vst3shell, which I already mentioned above, which is an existing product and the only thing it requires to implement is VST shell plugin support. It's a lot more realistic to happen anytime soon than any other sort of "official" VST3 support.

[Exhale]

The way I picture it, you download modplug as normal, install it the way it is now... then if you want vst3 you download and install the vst3 mod

That "VST3 mod" could simply be vst3shell, which I already mentioned above, which is an existing product and the only thing it requires to implement is VST shell plugin support. It's a lot more realistic to happen anytime soon than any other sort of "official" VST3 support.

ok thanks, that clarifies things I guess. I guess I got carried away trying to suggest something that someone who might not even be a part of the present team could make on their own if they had the know how and the drive to do it... idk... back to making music again I guess.

[Saga Musix]

As of r21326 (OpenMPT 1.32.00.22), there is support for VST2 shell plugins. This means that it is now possible to use the aforementioned vst3shell plugin as a way to get VST3 plugins into OpenMPT. It hasn't been tested much, and some plugins crash in vst3shell when unloading the plugin and the plugin's GUI was never opened (it also happens when doing the same in Renoise, so it's not a bug in OpenMPT's shell implementation). I will probably report that problem to the vst3shell author to see if it's a bug in the plugin. Please let me know if there are any other issues with it.

[Exhale]

that is certainly exciting, I will look into trying it out as soon as I am able, there are a lot of vst3 vsts out there now that I have wanted to try for years, but I will have to remember their names.

[Saga Musix]

One thing that might turn into a frequently asked question once more people use this: Whenenver a plugin is loaded through a shell plugin, OpenMPT updates its list of plugins that are contained within the shell plugin. Practically this means that if you have two VST3s A and B, and you decide to remove A from OpenMPT's plugin list, it will get re-added as soon as you load plugin B, which may look counter-intuitive at first.
I'm not sure if there's a good way to avoid this - it is of course beneficial that if the shell plugin contains any new plugins that the user sees them without having to do a manual rescan, and I think this convenience is more important than removing potentially unwanted plugins (why do you have the plugin installed if you don't want to see it in your plugin list?).

[Schmitty2005]

As of r21326 (OpenMPT 1.32.00.22), there is support for VST2 shell plugins.

This is excellent news!

I would like to give this a try when I have some time, but I had removed Visual Studio from my system a few years ago and cannot install and build because of a lack of HD space.

I have several Waves VST2  shells I could try.

Is there a way to download a pre-built (portable preferably)  version of 1.32.00.22 or greater ?

[Saga Musix]

Latest test builds can always be obtained from https://builds.openmpt.org/ - alternatively you can update your main OpenMPT installation by setting the update channel to "Development" instead of "Release".

[Schmitty2005]

I gave this a quick try with Waves shell v11 and v14 both audio plugins and VSTi's.

They Worked!  I did not notice any issues.  I only was able to test for about 5 minutes, but all audio , knobs, and GUI worked!

Thank you!