On the history and influences of modern drone music

uncloned · May 18, 2009, 11:29:12

please post a link to an Indian folk music example where the focus is not on the rhythm or melody but on the drone.

What I understand is drone style focuses on the drone such as your music.

And drone technique uses the drone as backing for the other instrumentation or melodic content.

Since you are the one presenting the POV about drone and have already found examples of your POV on youtube - could you post some links?

I still think you are mixing the two. Please offer me some examples to the contrary.

Louigi Verona · May 18, 2009, 12:03:10

No, no. I mean drone technique as when the music focuses on the drone - there is a variety of genres which do it.
Steve Roach and my kinda music you already know, so let's look at something else.

Let's see the link for metal drone, Sunn O)))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtnG6EHh1N4

Actually, this is what most people think of when you say "drone music". Around here I popularized the new age type of drone like Steve Roach, but mostly Sunn O))) is the first association. I guess it comes from the fact that the rock culture is very vast so more people are exposed to guitar experiments than anything else.

Here's another metal doom drone example, Nadja. You can hear in this example as the drone is the central figure in spite of the fact that the song actually has lyrics (!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgJdLr6uU80

The Indian music example I heard some years ago on tape, I will require time to find it. You can find some examples on YouTube like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ReN9tAUZkQ

But I heard a much more serious recording, drone based. In some part it does have rhythm, but the drone dominates fully and the whole music is much more impressive and deep than the example above.

uncloned · May 18, 2009, 17:45:35

Sun O)))) which was pretty boring (no real timbre change unlike your music) I can see being drone - though there were chord changes albeit somewhat slow ones.

Though you can see directly were the guitar comes from in this from 1970
Black Sabbath War Pigs (which I used to play incidentally)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtqy4DTHGqg

The idea for War Pigs was power and majesty in the introduction. Sun O))) seems to have taken this to an extreme - but loses the power and majesty by overuse - but that is just my opinion of course.

Nadja - is this a band or a female singer? In anycase this reminds me strongly of Sigur Ros. This definitely has chord progressions and movement - I don't see the drone as being the central object at all - the drone is to me functioning as a traditional western (and for that matter Indian) drone -- it gives the melody something to work against in order to judge the distance. By about 3 minutes into it the "drone" chord has been significantly turned down in volume.

Much better music version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeSlN9LhnQ&feature=related

The indian music example - where the drone is a repeated melody of root - fifth - octave above root - is totally contrived if you read the comments - but it is the closest to your drone music in all of the examples given I'll give you that. But it doesn't seem to be representative of Indian folk music. Perhaps Sam can enlighten us - he seems to know alot about Indian music.

"freezinghand (3 months ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply No sitar in this one, I left it with just the drone as I have found it was hard to find that drone sound online and it is such a powerful sound, People can add their own inner melody to it or drift off if they want! Thanks "

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uncloned · May 18, 2009, 17:55:18

And what I read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_folk_music

This article suggests Indian folk music centers around dancing and singing - not unlike European or frankly any other culture's folk music.

I'm not finding material to back your assertion LV.

With all due respect I think you may be biased in your POV.

I will heartliy agree though that you are working with drone - but I will say that for you drone is a style and not a technique in the normal sense of the word.

I will say this - drone, as well as repetition, are some of the easiest things you can do with music - it only makes sense that the use of a drone or repeated rythmic figure would be wide spread in indigenious and folk cultures.

Louigi Verona · May 18, 2009, 18:57:26

QuoteI can see it being drone - though there were chord changes albeit somewhat slow ones.

QuoteThis definitely has chord progressions and movement - I don't see the drone as being the central object at all

Drone music can have as many chord progressions and movement as it wants. There is absolutely no rule that drone music should not have melodies or chord progressions. The rule is that the melodic changes if there are any are slow and/or not emphasized. Why do you think that drone music is drone only if it changes timbre and not the melody is beyond my understanding - because this is really not the case. I did not make this up, it says so even in wikipedia. And perhaps this is why you do not look at it as a technique.

Sunn O))) may seem boring to you but a lot of people actually enjoy it.

Perhaps another choice of words can help: droning. This sounds more like a technique.
I repeat once more - why can't I look at drone music as a genre? Because it is too broad. It embraces several genres/styles of music. This is why I showed you these several examples. Your response was that most of it is not drone. But this is not really debatable - all of the bands I showed you are considered to be drone - want it or not. And - as far as I can see it - they are all drone music.

QuoteThis article suggests Indian folk music centers around dancing and singing - not unlike European or frankly any other culture's folk music.

In my experience, folk music is not limited to one form. Australian folk music (with which I am a bit more familiar) has a section which is drone based - didjeridoo obviously. Not always it is accompanied by rhythm (although in most cases it is).

QuoteWith all due respect I think you may be biased in your POV.

In this case I do not think there can be a biased or an unbiased opinion. It's simply how I look at this particular matter. I do not believe there is any way to come to an unbiased opinion - yours can be considered as biased as mine.

To me such things are important because when I work with music theory I find many terms to be too broad or not exact. I find this in many-many things - this happens because people do not always need to differentiate, not all of them are interested in building music theories.

If in your life you use drone as a genre - it will work for communication. In music theory it does not work for me for reasons I've explained above. A bit later I will record a chapter of my music observations audio book and leave a link in the downloads - get i then. It will be about types, genres and styles of music in the music theory I am developing. It cannot be universally agreed upon of course.

uncloned · May 18, 2009, 19:40:37

This is what I read in wikipedia

"In music, a drone is a harmonic or monophonic effect or accompaniment where a note or chord is continuously sounded throughout most or all of a piece, sustained or repeated, and most often establishing a tonality upon which the rest of the piece is built."

It says nothing about a chord change

"Most hurdy gurdies have multiple "drone strings" which provide a constant pitch accompaniment to the melody, resulting in a sound similar to that of bagpipes. For this reason, the hurdy gurdy is often used interchangeably with or along with bagpipes, particularly in French and contemporary Hungarian folk music."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy

Hurdy Gurdy is perhaps the most direct reference for Western Music

Now back to the rest of your post

uncloned · May 18, 2009, 19:50:36

Well, I'll give you this - usually when one is trying to create something new, which I know you have been striving to do for some time, a position that seems extreme to others is often required.

I think though that for common usage - drone referes to a long, long, long note or notes, that extend the length of the piece. And I think Indian Classical music is an excellent example of this definition and bagpipes and hurdy gurdy excellent examples of instruments made with droning in mind.

The music you create - would fit within this definition where the center of the piece is indeed the drone. Phillip Glass to me is stepping outside (despite what we posted earlier) because his is textural music - the music changes subtly by almost imperceviable change in pitchs or pitch order.

I have ripped a CD from my father's collection - Ravi Shankar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Morning_Raga_/_An_Evening_Raga

whoa - from 1968 - an excellent example my understanding of drone. Beautiful music.... Two pieces each 25 minutes long or so...

LV - one limitation of your drone music is that using the sound sources you are you are bound by the harmonic series - when you do a filter sweep you are emphasising the same relative pitch each time. I'm trying to find a way around this limitation.

Louigi Verona · May 18, 2009, 20:39:53

QuoteWell, I'll give you this - usually when one is trying to create something new, which I know you have been striving to do for some time, a position that seems extreme to others is often required.

Perhaps. I do not do this consciously though - it just happens that deeper thought usually makes you come up with conclusions which seem odd and extreme, with discoveries. But when you explain them they do make sense. I think that when I put out the style/genre/type/technique material and speak more about it you will if not agree than understand where I am going with this.

Quote from: "uncloned"
I have ripped a CD from my father's collection - Ravi Shankar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Morning_Raga_/_An_Evening_Raga

whoa - from 1968 - an excellent example my understanding of drone. Beautiful music.... Two pieces each 25 minutes long or so...

Hey, this is fantastic! I heard this on tape a long time ago! Ragas which depend on time of day. Can you share the mp3 files or smth?

QuoteLV - one limitation of your drone music is that using the sound sources you are you are bound by the harmonic series - when you do a filter sweep you are emphasising the same relative pitch each time. I'm trying to find a way around this limitation.

This is an intentional move, believe it or not. It was actually the first thing I noticed about sound music - a certain irrelevance of harmonic content, melodic development being a distraction from sound development. I am just one example of what sound music can be. If you try Saafi Brothers, you will hear that sound music can be full of variety without emphasizing harmonic complexity or harmonic development. If you would like, you can either sear YouTube or I can send you a couple of mp3 examples.

In fact, this limitation is similar to limitations which exist in note-based music from the POV of sound music - like, the melody is played with a sound and it's timbre and sound is still, limited to one form.

However, sound music can certainly incorporate harmonic changes, so I am very interested in any thoughts you might have about this. Question is - where the boundary lies. How I see it - combining note-based and sound based music should be done very delicately, to the point of it not being advised at all. I tried doing this in Journey 98, but it only worked because the melodic part lacked any significant development and pronunciation. And to this day I wonder whether it was a good move there at all.

Sam_Zen · May 18, 2009, 23:43:19

Well. this debate is getting in some 'drone' also.

2 LV : explain the difference between, what you call, Indian FOLK music, and Indian classical music to me.

It's a typical phenomenon from a western point of view to call any other music tradition 'folk' music.
It's a perception with a smell of superiority, which is totally inappropriate.

Louigi Verona · May 19, 2009, 03:34:00

QuoteIt's a typical phenomenon from a western point of view to call any other music tradition 'folk' music.
It's a perception with a smell of superiority, which is totally inappropriate.

Superiority has nothing to do with that. Misinformation and innocent misinterpretation are the usual suspects.
I am familiar with folk music of many nations thanks to my numerous contacts in the folk world and interest to the music tradition. I have heard some serious Indian classical music and it is absolutely fascinating, but I did not listen to a lot of it. (And I can't see how one can call it folk, since it is so complex, but I guess that does happen.)

What I heard most from Indian folk is the percussion music tradition. I have also (very-very briefly) been introduced to the basics of Indian percussion. Don't possess the actual drums though, they are so expensive in Europe ( :cry: ). The tunes I've heard were either drum-based or drone-based with one tune being able to have both sections. This is something usually known as "meditation" music.

I wouldn't mind if a knowledgeable person would actually speak about Indian music and show interesting examples of instrumental folk music, I am not at all saying I am so well versed in it. But folk music is a diverse thing and I do know some of it.

uncloned · May 19, 2009, 12:55:43

QuoteThis is an intentional move, believe it or not. It was actually the first thing I noticed about sound music - a certain irrelevance of harmonic content, melodic development being a distraction from sound development. I am just one example of what sound music can be. If you try Saafi Brothers, you will hear that sound music can be full of variety without emphasizing harmonic complexity or harmonic development. If you would like, you can either sear YouTube or I can send you a couple of mp3 examples.

we bumpped into a stupid english language usage thing. Perhaps "partials" would be more understnadable.

The hamonic series is the complete series of sines/cosines that make up a "harmonic" waveform such as a square, triangle, or saw wave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)

Which is distinct from "harmony" (and melody) which is how I think you interpeted my use of harmonic.

Here is my point -

look at the table in the link - specifically this graphic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Harmonic_partials_on_strings.svg

All "harmonic" waveforms - square, triangle, or saw waves - are made from these partials - they only differ by the volume. When you sweep a low pass filter on a saw wave played at middle C you will -always- get the same "partials" emphasized. Change to a square wave and the same partials are emphasized. Same for a triangle.

What this means is that all sound music, if using "harmonic" waveforms will sound similar or worse yet the same. I mean to try to break out of this box - and in fact Barry made a couple VSTi's for me for this purpose.

The simple and direct approach is to use additive synthesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_synthesis

Louigi Verona · May 19, 2009, 13:42:35

Can you expand on this a bit? I think I understand but I never thought about it and I would love to have more information. Specifically - in what way is it the same? How do you apply additional synthesis to solve the situation - dynamically?

uncloned · May 19, 2009, 14:26:43

The harmonic series is really easy to understand once explained.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawtooth_wave

The Fourier theorem says that every sound that you hear can be described by a mix of sines and cosines at the appropiate volume and phase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_cosine_series

Read these and ask for clarification where you need it.

Louigi Verona · May 19, 2009, 17:39:57

In other words, what you are doing is during the performance or duration of track you are changing the osc settings to change the source of the synthesized sound, right?

uncloned · May 19, 2009, 17:48:01

no....

the graphic can be generated by a (severe) low pass filter sweep from low to high with little or no Q on an oscilator giving a saw.

A single note - unless it is a sinewave - consists of many frequencies. The ear -generally- hears the lowest frequency as the "note" and the frequecies above it make the "color" i.e. timbre.