Author Topic: Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?  (Read 24882 times)

Offline psishock

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 21:17:49 »
(off topic?):
As for myself, i found that the higher frequencies sounds good most of the time anyway. They have a same "meaning" to me on a few notes lower or higher, but the low frequencies (like bass) or the similar sounds are really bad if they are 2 deep or too high, so i'm tuning these frequencies first to sound optimal, then add the higher ones on them.

Sam_Zen even if some people would call you "senseless and silly", that shouldn't really offend you imo. You got your ideas and have reasons behind them, even using them on some of your compositions. They can have their options too. I'm, for example, most of the time having a nice bath or drink few glass of water before longer composing, because i enjoy the water very much and i feel more relaxed and creative when i'm near it. This can be silly for normal people, but it helps and making me happy.
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Offline Sam_Zen

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2009, 23:37:55 »
2 psishock
You probably got a point there, and I don't feel offensed, or taking it personally. I'm beyond such a stage for a while.
I like to discuss things, also from different angles, but such classifications just slam the bottom out of the debate.

(on topic):
I think LP is right with his experiment. One chooses a piece with a certain groundtone. If shifted just a bit higher or lower could indeed make a different impression on the brain, which is combining all the frequencies involved.
Maybe the same is valid if a song is played with a slightly different clockspeed.
0.618033988

Offline LPChip

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 06:58:28 »
I will provide a testcase of the same song tracked with 440hz and 432hz so you can judge for yourself, and we can continue that discussion at that point. For now I'd like to know as many options in getting the sound detuned, possibly also the easiest ones. If indeed VSTi's are ruled out I might have to make me one for this purpose. I've done that again, and I feel comfortable enough using my own VSTi in many songs. Drums aren't really affected by this, so thats not a problem.

Now, if it were only possible to alter modplug tracker somehow to make it easier to detune all samples... hint, hint...
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline Saga Musix

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 12:20:30 »
Just to make this test less biased, I'd also suggest to add f.e. a 448 hz, a 456hz and a 424hz Version. Just to go sure... :P Yes, I mean this seriously.
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Offline LPChip

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 14:36:50 »
Quote from: "Jojo"
Just to make this test less biased, I'd also suggest to add f.e. a 448 hz, a 456hz and a 424hz Version. Just to go sure... :P Yes, I mean this seriously.


It really depends on the easyness of detuning the samples. If this is a tedious task (as I'm fearing) I will not do that many detunings. But if I could either do a mass detuning on all samples, or set MPT to change the note frequencies assigned to C-4 and then just reset it to that note, then I could do them quite easilly.

Otherwise, It'll be a matter of getting each sample match the frequency by ear. I am planning on using certain instruments that unfortunatelly for me have 8+ samples.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline Saga Musix

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 14:47:33 »
Well, try to restrain the number of samples and use only samples which have the same tuning at the same playback frequency. The rest is just copy'n'pasting the same frequency to all samples. ;)
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Offline LPChip

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2009, 16:31:25 »
I'm not going to restrain myself for this song, just because I'm also going to provide a testcase here. I have this song planned for a week now, and already have the ideas in my head.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline LPChip

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 13:06:59 »
I've decided that it would be better to use an existing Chiptune for this experiment. I've altered Dreaming Onwards to fit the tunings and came to the conclusion that that song isn't even made in the 440hz range even.

I tracked it originally at 446hz, so I scaled it down first to 440hz, and then to 432hz. The difference is astonishing to me, and gives me enough proof to keep it like this.

The examples can be heard here: http://files.lpchip.com/temp/Dreaming%20Onwards%20diff%20tunings.7z

How did I tune the sounds?

I downloaded NCH Tone Generator (website), set it to play a 440hz note, then find the closest note to it and then tuned it to sound equally to the tone by the tonegenerator. The closer you come the more it starts to resonate until its equal.

I did this with all 5 square samples and saved the song with 440 in the filename. Then I repeated the same for 432hz. I was curious what the original was, so I loaded it in, and then tweaked the tonegenerator to match it which seemed to be 446.

I did some more testing, and it seems that VSTi's don't play exactly at 440hz either. They're slightly lower, at 437hz.

So this made me wondering. Maybe somehow the tuning is 3 hz off. So I also tuned the sampels to 429hz and added it to the package. The 429 and 432 versions sound nearly identical, yet the 432 sounds more powerfull to me.

I'd say, judge for yourself and take a notice what both the 440hz and 432hz one do to you. It convinces me to continue my work on 432hz.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline psishock

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 13:43:47 »
From these examples the 440hz tuning sounded the best for me.
446 could pass, but as i've listened, i would sightly lower some notes to sound more "natural", but the 432 and specially 429 was quite off the tone, the sounds are way too low for me.
I can imagine that these tunings and their outcomes really depends on the songs. Other ones may sound better on different tunings than ~440.
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Offline LPChip

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 14:45:58 »
Quote from: "psishock"
From these examples the 440hz tuning sounded the best for me.
446 could pass, but as i've listened, i would sightly lower some notes to sound more "natural", but the 432 and specially 429 was quite off the tone, the sounds are way too low for me.
I can imagine that these tunings and their outcomes really depends on the songs. Other ones may sound better on different tunings than ~440.


Hmm, this is really weird. 440 tunings sounded pretty cold to me. I've got a quite negative feeling from it. The 432 tuning sounded alot more pleasant and warm, and made me feel happy.

EDIT: you did listened to each tune from beginning to end right? Not just compared short clips? Otherwise, you'll find 440 to be the most enjoyable because you don't know better.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline psishock

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2009, 15:09:02 »
not every *entire* song but almost, i did stopped around 1:30-2:00 on the rest because all of the sounds were introduced by that time (i've listened the first one 'till the end to know that). I can't compare anything if i don't have the full picture from them.
Then again, if this is true (we have found different tunings enjoyable), the whole thing is kinda personal, it depends on every person, maybe even on their mood perhaps?

EDIT: can you make more different tuned example tunes to help us compare? I would really like to see the results/effects on different stuff.
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Offline Saga Musix

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2009, 16:41:19 »
direct side-by-side listening is not really possible here. I listened to 432hz first on purpose, then the 429hz version, then 440hz. Every tune just sounded detuned when being switched fastly, and the general feeling didn't change for me at all.
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Offline LPChip

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2009, 16:42:55 »
Quote from: "psishock"
EDIT: can you make more different tuned example tunes to help us compare? I would really like to see the results/effects on different stuff.


I guess I could... Its just a matter of tuning 5 samples to a frequency, which I guess anyone could do. You have the source files too now.

Just find the right octave and press the 7 key and compare it with the output of a tonegenerator and tune it against it.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline psishock

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2009, 16:54:29 »
'sokay LP, i've sounded lazy (because i am :D), but will try to compare the things the way you've described.

Quote from: "Jojo"
direct side-by-side listening is not really possible here. Every tune just sounded detuned when being switched fastly, and the general feeling didn't change for me at all.

Well i've listened to it in order. 446,440,432,429 but the 440 was the most appealing to me still. After that, i've listened them in random order, just to find out, maybe my decision will change, but after some more listening, the 440 still sounded the best. (the general feel doesn't changed for me also on any variation, just found it more appealing to listen in this tuning)
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Offline Saga Musix

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Tuning for VSTi's (finetune) possible?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2009, 17:21:57 »
you're doing it wrong anyway, you have to do a ABX blind test. everything else is _not_ a prove.
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