Unleashing Modplug.

[Sam_Zen]

Right on, tvdude.. Nice words.
And you're right about the 16 bit on cds. Eventually it gets to that, and it's quite sufficient for the human ear.
Although I can understand the need for higher resolutions in the mixing stage.

[Nahkranoth]

I know it won't be possible in the near future but OMPT+modular environment would be cool

[vedus]

Better VST and automation would be very useful.

[Relabsoluness]

Do you think that Modplug should have improved VSTi capabilities, Better sampling, and other features that have become industry Standard? Or should Modplug remain a Tracker software in a separate school of its own?

Neglecting the problems set by the reality, why not both? Having some 'industry standard' features doesn't have to mean that the essence of MPT as tracker would change.

As a matter of fact, I have talked about it for a while behind the scenes with our team, its true that cash isn't really the issue, but time at the moment.

Generally speaking, lack of time may be due to the fact that one needs to go to work in order to get money.

I can't see why would MPT not develop towards "industrial standards".

There could be surprising reasons: like the one why such a major software as Audacity doesn't provide build-in VST support.

[Sam_Zen]

I still feel a priority for 'compositional standards', not for industrial. Tracking is a choice for expression.

Ok, VST support is introduced in OMPT, so it should be handled as correct as possible.
But something which is a 'support' shouldn't take over how the program should be.

I agree with Relabsoluness : "why not both?". But this is not an item in this dualistic poll.

[KrazyKatz]

Interesting how the response is turning out.

Anyhow, without quoting here's addressing a few points:

Programs like 'Reason' are groove makers. Cubase however is far from it. Which brings me to address tvdude's queries:

I use both Modplug & Cubase , and they're two separate worlds. Let me explain it like this:

Modplug is more of a composing tool. Sort of like pen and music paper to write out your music.

Cubase is more of a record and edit tool. You're Keyboard, or guitar are the composing tool used and Cubase simply records it.

Mixing is another story. Modplug isn't made for mixing. Cubase clearly is.

There are areas where both programs intertwine, and Modplug is stronger in some areas, whereas Cubase is stronger in others.

Current Cd's do use 16bit sampling, but this is slowly become phased out, since DVDs use 24bit. There is clearly a hearable difference in 16bit and 24bit and even so, for mixing, 24 bit recordings produce superior results.

Sam Zen said

I still feel a priority for 'compositional standards', not for industrial.

He hit the nail on the head. The reason that I've made this poll is that I feel Modplug needs enhancement in order to create better compositions. It's frustrating knowing what I want to achieve and simply not being able to, due to limitations of the program.

[Sam_Zen]

Interesting response indeed.

You rightfully call Reason a 'groove maker'. I've smelled it, and decided that it was meant for 'consumers', not for 'composers'.

You rightfully use both Modplug & Cubase. In my case it's ModPlug & Cool, because I don't use MIDI, but the idea is the same.

In my experience these are just two sets of tools for different functions.
The difference between a composition-maker and the production-maker of that composition.
So far, I don't demand the composition-maker (OMPT) to be able to achieve what the production-side can do.

I consider a tracker-module as a written score of a composition, just like on paper.
The electronic composer has the advantage to listen to his compo instantly with all the instruments nowadays,
but the final production of the piece is another stage. And another field of skill.
Why should OMPT have a Doppler-effect plugin, while other progs can do this in the production phase ?

[maleek]

Very interesting tread!

I have been using OMPT for quite a few years. And I would say that I use it for roughly 80 % of my compositional needs. The reason is the tracker look with an extensive mouse interface which to my mind makes tracking easier then in Buzz or Madtrader. It is a matter of personal taste.

During the years I have tried to work around the limitations of MPT with VST och VSTI:s. Mixing inside OMPT is subjectivly harder then in other programs, but not impossible by any means. The perks of the general interface wins over the accesibility of other programs. But I see a real benefit of OMPT to grow and become a better tool then it is.

Basically I would very much welcome OMPT to incorporate changes that would make my production easier. First and foremost with automation possible with vst and vsti:s.

[seventhson]

Interesting response indeed.

You rightfully call Reason a 'groove maker'. I've smelled it, and decided that it was meant for 'consumers', not for 'composers'.

As far as i know Reason is a full fledged modern sequencer with it's own effects,sampler and instruments. (not my preferred sequencer however)
There are plenty of professionals out there that use it, so talking about it as if it is merely a toy is a little bit foolish.

You rightfully use both Modplug & Cubase. In my case it's ModPlug & Cool, because I don't use MIDI, but the idea is the same.

In my experience these are just two sets of tools for different functions.
The difference between a composition-maker and the production-maker of that composition.
So far, I don't demand the composition-maker (OMPT) to be able to achieve what the production-side can do.

I consider a tracker-module as a written score of a composition, just like on paper.
The electronic composer has the advantage to listen to his compo instantly with all the instruments nowadays,
but the final production of the piece is another stage. And another field of skill.
Why should OMPT have a Doppler-effect plugin, while other progs can do this in the production phase ?

I consider modplug as the program wherein sequencing, adding effects and creating the final mix is done.
For mastering however i would use a different program.

[tvdude]

This has perplexed me for some time.  How can modplug not be considered a mixing (or production) tool?  Not only are there appliable effects options for each channel, but there are volume controls on each channel, not to mention volume controls and effects controls within each channel.  How are other mixing programs superior to that?

[le_parasite]

This has perplexed me for some time.  How can modplug not be considered a mixing (or production) tool?  Not only are there appliable effects options for each channel, but there are volume controls on each channel, not to mention volume controls and effects controls within each channel.  How are other mixing programs superior to that?

graphic automation, volume slide precision (no step), enveloppe processing...
but I mainly mix my tracks on MPT...

[Sam_Zen]

As maleek stated, first of all it's a matter of taste. Everyone has his own toolset to achieve the results.

There are plenty of professionals out there that use it, so talking about it as if it is merely a toy is a little bit foolish.

Well, I was a bit rude on that, but I didn't call it a toy.
There was a discussion about this before, but I still consider, although both MPT and Reason technically can be called 'sequencers',
that they are different categories. One wouldn't call MPT 'just another groove-maker', because it can be much, much more.
I don't see myself making an a-rhythmical soundscape with e.g. Rebirth.

How can modplug not be considered a mixing (or production) tool?

You're surely right. It is too. Before I had a multi-track mixer, I did the production with MPT.
And if I want a straight and simple stereo-mix I still do. The volume, panning and player options are quite sufficient.
And I trust the developers of MPT in keeping on enhancing and finetuning the program.

But for quite some time I make my final productions as a four-channel WAV (quad), so then it's another story.
Then I am considering the composition made with MPT as a kind of 'premix', so still as 'raw material'.
The beauty of MPT is, that one can export one channel or a selected group of channels as a single WAV-file,
to be imported in the multi-track mixer. This is a great property to achieve a more detailed 'master'.
In this way I can split the tracker module into let's say a set of 8 stereo WAVs, with different instrument-groups,
to be imported in the multitrack-mixer.

I think our common interest is that MPT is growing in a balanced way, not bending to the direction of the
hype of the day, nor bending to the direction of a 'purist' kind of view.

[bvanoudtshoorn]

I think our common interest is that MPT is growing in a balanced way, not bending to the direction of the hype of the day, nor bending to the direction of a 'purist' kind of view.

Nicely put.

+1

[älskling]

I don't see myself making an a-rhythmical soundscape with e.g. Rebirth..

So you base your opinion on Reason 4 on a ten year old TB-303 emulator?

[anboi]

okay i think a lot of you have some weird ideas about what modplug is and can do!
as far as i can see then modplug as a program for composing music at a basic level (i mean putting everything in the place you want, but not caring about quite how it sounds in terms of production) has pretty much everything you need, the only things now required are to make some things easier to use and perhaps to remove some old shite (for example does anyone really need the awful modplug reverb & Eq settings? )
i think that you can track anything that can be written in conventional music notation with modplug as it now stands (and has for years). you can now also use alternative tunings easily. the resampling is already pretty good, could be a tiny bit better but it's good enough at the moment (and the fact you can change resampling methods per sample is ace as well as possibly unique to modplug). the mixing is perhaps iffier - i think there is a bit of a tell-tale 'modplug sound' but it's very hard to do a decent comparison of mixing routines, comparing antialiasing is much easier. but yeah, that's all the basics covered. if you had PERFECT samples then i think any piece of music possible could be recorded in modplug? (nice to know if someone has some cases where it can't!)

where modplug starts being 'professional' is where the VST support comes in - without this then modplug just doesn't cut it, with it you have access to the use of a huge array of external effects and instruments that can be used to get tracks up to a decent professional standard.
modplugs current abilities are lacking 3 major things (there are limited get-arounds for the first 2 of these but they're clunky or wasteful on resources or instances):

-better routing & mixing for vst plugs (ie the ability to alter the % sent to an effect per channel or per instrument and the ability to do things like side chaining)

-plugin delay compensation (some plugins take a while to process so you get everything put through one effect coming out a second later than it should or of course phase cancelling if you're mixing in original signal with something with a shorter delay, nasty!)

-better all round support! (a bit general but there are quite a few dodgy plugins that modplug doesn't like or behaves strangely with, the only crashes i've ever had in 9 or 10 years are from VST use)

one more very important thing that modplug lacks is the power to automate EVERYTHING - some plugins have too many params and modplug can't send control changes to these.
so in summary: based on the VST support modplug is 'sort of' professional, it's extremely capable but there are a few things that are not achievable and some that are more difficult than they should be.