Author Topic: OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)  (Read 26379 times)

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2006, 14:08:35 »
Quote from: "LPChip"
Note that each custom preset can have a diagram for each note with each chord in it.

Eg: if we decide that 0 = C, 1 = C# etc... and 0 = maj, 1 = min, 2 = maj7, 3 = maj7 etc.

you can make your own scheme, then simply do:

?F8 (select your custom set)
?01 = C maj
?53 = F maj7


I don't understand the point in adding chord names like "major", "major 7th", etc. If you tune to a C scale in just intonation, it will be the correct scale whether you play a major, minor, diminished, 7th, major 7th, etc.

Offline speed-goddamn-focus

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2006, 14:14:13 »
Quote from: "furrykef"
It'd also be annoying having all those essentially duplicated instruments. If you have sixteen instruments in two tunings each, suddenly you have 32 of 'em!

I don't really see the harm in that... Then again I never composed a song with sixteen instruments and I probably will never use this feature either... ;) I just liked the idea of object oriented instruments...

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2006, 14:16:01 »
Quote from: "speed-goddamn-focus"
I just liked the idea of object oriented instruments...


I see where you're coming from, and I do like the idea of having minor variations of instruments, but I don't think alternative tunings would be a good application of that idea.

- Kef

Offline LPChip

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2006, 15:31:32 »
Here's a diagram of what I mean. I've also posted it in the other post, but that post is on the previous page, which is more than likelly not to be seen :P

Code: [Select]
     |C |C#|D |D#|E |F |F#|G |G#|A |A#|B |
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
C     |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
CM7   |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
C7    |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Cm    |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Cm7   |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Cdim  |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Cm7   |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Caug  |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Csus4 |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
C7sus4|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
C6    |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Cm6   |??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|
------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+


Maybe I just don't understand the entire temperament thingy. Note: for simplicity, I named the chords for C chord, but obviously the more you go to the right in the table, the higher the note becomes. So a Cm below F = Fm.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2006, 15:40:55 »
I still don't see why chords should be involved in selecting a tuning... a tuning simply defines the pitches of each note. In just intonation, you will need to retune to use certain chords, but this depends only on the root of the chord, not whether it's major, minor, etc. The tuning itself would only be C, C#, D, etc.

- Kef

Offline LPChip

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2006, 16:26:53 »
Ah okay, so basically you change the chords to C-B and its okay?

Eg:
Code: [Select]

?xy
  where
      x = tonation chart
  and
      y = root key, 0 = C, 1 = C#, 2=D, ... A = A#, B = B
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2006, 16:31:47 »
Something like that would work, though I don't know if the 'x' part of the parameter would be too useful. Needing to retune for chords is mostly a just intonation thing, so it wouldn't be as necessary for other systems, if that's what you had in mind.

- Kef

Offline LPChip

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2006, 19:15:02 »
Lets just say that I understand like 5% of it, and I though I understood it for like 10% :P
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline Relabsoluness

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2006, 20:49:31 »
Quote from: "furrykef"
Quote from: "LPChip"
Maybe its better to affect the pitch instead? Eg. S28 = middle, higher number and the pitch is slightly raised, lower and its slightly lowered? I think that will be better to adjust in case you want that for one note.


I don't think I really like this idea. How do you know how much to adjust pitch?

The finetune parameter in the tuning can be used to an extent to define how 'densily' the space between 'main steps' is divided, thus maybe making it possible to finetune the note accurately enough. Currently I think there is no proper modcommand to control the finetune, but that doesn't sounds like a big problem.

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2006, 21:08:21 »
I'm not against a fine-tune feature, but I think it's an issue separate from the general tuning problem.

Offline speed-goddamn-focus

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2006, 23:45:45 »
Would this feature enable us to change the tuning of VSTi:s?

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2006, 02:54:53 »
Crap, I hadn't thought of that, since I don't use VSTi's. I don't know the underlying architecture, either; I think that will depend on how notes are sent to the VSTi. If it's a MIDI note number, or something along those lines, then no, that won't be easy (possible using a pitch-shifter, perhaps, but I don't know). If it's a number in Hertz or something, it'd be trivial. Unfortunately, my experience with music software tells me it's probably a MIDI note number.

EDIT: Looks to me that VSTi is based on MIDI, so we're probably out of luck on that one.

- Kef

Offline furrykef

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2006, 07:06:13 »
Also, another way of looking at the situation is in cents... you know how an equal-tempered scale is divided into 100 cents per semitone, as each semitone is the same interval apart from the next. Naturally, because other systems are uneven, that rule, 100 cents per semitone, will no longer hold, but it still provides a simple figure for comparing intervals.

The C major scale in just intonation is:
  • C: 1/1 : 0 cents
  • D: 9/8: 204 cents
  • E: 5/4: 384 cents
  • F: 4/3: 498 cents
  • G: 3/2: 702 cents
  • A: 5/3: 884 cents
  • B: 15/8: 1088 cents
Now comparing intervals is just a matter of subtracting cents. We see that a perfect fifth, as in C:G, should be 702 cents. The interval D:A, however, is 884 - 204 = 680 cents, which is 22 cents flatter than the 702 cents we want; no wonder it sounds bad!

BTW, I have to admit I'm still learning much of this, so I probably sound more knowledgeable than I actually am... I actually haven't played much with intonation because I don't really have good tools to do so.

- Kef

Offline LPChip

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2006, 07:57:00 »
Midi data indeed uses notes, but I also believe there actually is support for temperament. I don't know how well it has been integrated into the steinberg VST SDK though.
"Heh, maybe I should've joined the compo only because it would've meant I wouldn't have had to worry about a damn EQ or compressor for a change. " - Atlantis
"yes.. I think in this case it was wishful thinking: MPT is makng my life hard so it must be wrong" - Rewbs

Offline rncekel

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OpenMPT tunings (was: OpenMPT suggestion: well temperament)
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2006, 17:01:09 »
Music is mostly an historical product. It is not the ear that prefers the "just intonation" tunning; this has a physical background. The way harmonics are produced (when we hit a string, for example) is precisely that. Some ancient musics used a pentatonic scale to avoide the problem of the intervals that sounded a little strange. The gregorian modes were also an attempt to solve this uncertainty, by using all the posibilities. Western music centered very soon on tempered tunning, and we have been hearing almost exclusively tempered music for some 300 years; so now, most of us prefer really tempered music (even if we don't know anything about it). Many people, when they hear some "just intonation" tunned music, think it is simply out of tune! But I find the idea of different tunnings really great, not for trying to use "just intonation" (that would be not very interesting now), but to be able to use other tunnings, apart from the traditional western one; I'm thinking on some oriental scales that use quarter of tunes, and contemporary academic music, that use sometimes other small intervals.
By the way, as this is something that most people will never use (and even never mind of), I think that the best approach is the tunning-per-instrument.