Author Topic: modplug system requirements  (Read 14675 times)

Offline xaimus

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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2006, 22:45:24 »
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"
I obviously hit a nerve here.

Quote from: "xaimus"
It eats a lot of space, but does save CPU time.

It shouldn't eat significantly more space, because 3 seconds of sound is 3 seconds, with one or with 15 instruments.

With a VSTi, I can control any number of parameters in realtime.  If I want to emulate this using only samples, I'd need to sample the output of every combination of parameter change I need.  I did this a little bit on another track I'm working on (removing VSTis, converting to samples)--the filesize jumped up from about 1 MiB to 40 MiB after I did the conversion.

Offline Sam_Zen

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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2006, 23:49:44 »
2 Matt Hartman
I was just joking about that nerve.

Quote from: "Matt Hartman"
I guess I mainly wanted to inform you that there is some great technology out there that's really worth the look. There's so much of it now that you're bound to find some of it quite useful and simplistic. I beleive despite the fact that you seem pretty well settled into your musical cubby, there yonder spans a whole new world of experimentation out there waiting for you, ripe for the picking. That is, if you are so inclined.

Now, the joking is over. This is really pathetic. You don't assume to know anyone on a personal level, well then it would be a good advice to follow your youth habit : saying nothing. Let me give you the facts :
(I don't like this, but sometimes it is necessary)

I'm 61 years old, I'm working about 40 years now with electronic devices to produce sound. I experienced the change from analog to digital. I started tracking in the pre-windows age on a Dos 6.2 machine. I'm allowed to call myself a studio- and a computer-engineer. I give courses to fellow artist about how to deal with the XP-system..
And you tell me to come out of my 'musical cubby' to find out about the latest wonders of technology ??
Or you must have a kind of humour, unfamiliar to me.

I just wanted to question the hypes about 'faster' and 'bigger'. If one would follow this blindly, then one would end up fetching the shoppings with a Ferrari to the grocery just around the corner.
Besides that, the goal to keep a program running with as little power as possible is also a social one :
Poor people have 'older' computers, so it would be nice if they still can enjoy it too.

2 georg
Your fun in tracking is obviously spoiled. But I have a guess about the reason :
You made a wrong start by including vst-plugins immediately. Not for nothing they are called 'plugins', so meaning 'external extra's'. As you say, samples are the basic, so that's where you better begin. Extra's coming later.
So learn how to deal with a wav-editor to make your samples as good as they should be. And get acquainted with the tools to express yourself.
Another guess of course could be that you want to have a big success with as little work as possible ;)
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Offline georg

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2006, 12:12:01 »
I actually worked without VSTs for 2 years. I created samples by modifying existing ones, recording sounds with a mic, or recording via MPT, then there was Orangator and other various sources of sounds. When i began to use VSTs i primarily used them as filters to create new and different samples. Psycle was my favorite tool for sample creation which is ironic as it is a tracker/sequencer.

Samples r teh fun! Making music with them r teh pisshard.
I'll never make sword-chucks...
Update - 2013 I still havent made sword-chuks.
Update - 2021 What the hell are sword-chuks? :((

Offline Matt Hartman

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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2006, 23:45:44 »
Quote
Now, the joking is over. This is really pathetic. You don't assume to know anyone on a personal level, well then it would be a good advice to follow your youth habit : saying nothing. Let me give you the facts :
(I don't like this, but sometimes it is necessary)


Sam, I realize I'm almost directly half your physical age. But guess what. That really means nothing when we speak in terms of music making. Because music is a universal language not subject to physical age, but experience and the quality of that experience as well.


Quote
I'm 61 years old, I'm working about 40 years now with electronic devices to produce sound. I experienced the change from analog to digital. I started tracking in the pre-windows age on a Dos 6.2 machine. I'm allowed to call myself a studio- and a computer-engineer.I give courses to fellow artist about how to deal with the XP-system..


No debate here. You are truly "allowed" to see yourself any way you desire. 40 years is a respectful career track. I'm sure you can bring a lot to the table. Please feel free to share your knowledge.


Quote
And you tell me to come out of my 'musical cubby' to find out about the latest wonders of technology ?? Or you must have a kind of humour, unfamiliar to me.


There was no humor intended. I said this to benefit you, not me. I'm already know the wonders of technology, I employ them every day as well.

By musical cubby, I meant the tight niche YOU choose to place yourself in. Which makes my point even that much greater if you are aware of this technology as you've stated, yet choose not to use it. Like it or not, in my book that's called a shell. Yet, it's just a simple term without a negative connotation which means that one freely and intelligently chooses to scale back on technology in their approach.

Quote
I just wanted to question the hypes about 'faster' and 'bigger'. If one would follow this blindly, then one would end up fetching the shoppings with a Ferrari to the grocery just around the corner.


If you had hit me with that before I had four children to feed I probably would have felt it in my crotch. Instead, it's more like a distant itch that slightly nags at me but is manageable to ignore.

Quote
Besides that, the goal to keep a program running with as little power as possible is also a social one :Poor people have 'older' computers, so it would be nice if they still can enjoy it too.


I fully agree, everyone is entitled to have happiness in their lives regardless of how society classifies them.

But who dictates you must poor or because you may be poor that you can't acquire a better machine? I'm poor, but I worked hard to get the machine I have now. So I know it's not impossible, more of a cop out really.

I never said you should scrap the whole gig because you can't stand up to technology did I? All I simply ever said was that there's some amazing tech out there that YOU (a serious DIGITAL musician and fair patriot of life) May be interested in. And it would be worth it for YOU to INVEST in a better machine that would ALLOW YOU to reap the REWARDS.

I had no idea I was going to touch upon a obviously touchy subject.
I apologize I tried to spread the word in the hopes that other would benefit from the advice. Of course, the term benefit and its meaning is obviously relative to the person reading it.
Yeah, sure. Right. Whatever.

Offline Sam_Zen

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2006, 00:30:33 »
Quote from: "Matt Hartman"
if you are aware of this technology as you've stated, yet choose not to use it.

Choice ? The explanation is plain. I live on welfare and simply cannot afford a new system.
You call it a shell. Fine by me. But it is based on the same reason why I don't buy dishwash-fluid with a scent of lemons, because it doesn't make the things any cleaner. As long as it doesn't stink, it's ok.

I agree about the age-thing. It's about quality not quantity of time.

'Nuff said.
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Offline Matt Hartman

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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2006, 02:31:13 »
Sam,

Though we may not always agree (really who on Earth does?)
I know your intentions are of the highest regards.

You say you're on welfare. From what I've gathered about your personality so far, I must say you're quite an interesting character. And I don't say this to belittle you at all.

Do you have a website? Something that I can learn more about you?
I'm not a freak or anything, it's just that sometimes my curiosity is peeked when people's paths cross my own.

In my humble 32 years here, I've learned the very valueable lesson that everthing happens for a reason even if I don't understand it now.

Personally, if I were a person of wealth you'd have a new machine at your doorstep when you wake up in the morning. What you do with that is totally your choice.

Follow?

Thanks.
Yeah, sure. Right. Whatever.

Offline Harbinger

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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2006, 21:11:34 »
I would like to say that i wanted to moderate, but i find myself coming out on the side of our older speaker. I may only be 40, but i think like i'm 80, even tho i still have the "inspirability" of a 20-year-old.

One thing i've recognized as i've gotten older is that young people (or should i say, "young-thinking" people) tend to want to want to change their environment, even if that environment includes other souls. As you get older, however, you come to realize that you can actually effect, no matter how hard you try, very LITTLE change, except for your own psychology, if so inclined.

I can understand Sam_Zen's shortness with someone half his age telling him in effect he should keep up with the new technology, especially when he's learned (as i have) to live within his means. When you're young, there's is a natural inclination to believe that someone can better their situation. Ah, the hope of Youth...

But Sam_Zen can't exactly come out and say, "Well, wait until you're my age," because that's completely ineffectual, and wastes time in just thinking it. Old man, i have learned that there is no way to teach the young your wisdom, UNLESS they show a willingness and openness to learn or otherwise accomodate it -- WHICH Hartman seems ready to do. He seems willing to entertain the idea that, with you,  he may have put his toe across a line he didn't know was there. I'm sure he understands that a proud man does not want to admit his financial limitations, no matter how justifiable.

Both of you have shown your respectability, to me at least, in the few posts i've exchanged with you or else read. I wish to learn from both of you, and contribute what i can -- which i will do here, since we are talking about MPT specs:



I'm using MPT on a 267mHz PowerMac G3 under OS8.6, emulating with Virtual PC 3.0. Now this is the same as running Windows 98, but emulation cuts my clock speed to about 150mHz. I've learned that THAT is way too slow. If the sound layers become too thick, the patterns stutter and skip. Fortunately i can record to .mp3 just fine no problems; it's just the playback.

There are a few things i've learned that help a little:

1. Put VPC on a full screen -- not in a mac window.

2. Wherever possible change Note-Offs to Note-Cuts when an instrument with NNAs.

3. Use mono samples instead of stereo when acceptable.

4. Turn off Surround Sound when composing, and turn it on for testing or recording.



I would like to know, if changing the sampling playback type (Linear, spline, XMMS, etc), if that affects the speed. Anyone know?

Offline Sam_Zen

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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2006, 01:03:04 »
Quote from: "Matt Hartman"
Though we may not always agree (really who on Earth does?)

Many disagreements are quite trivial. But I think there is a global consensus among humans about a majority of things.
I don't need somebody to tell me with some 10 commandments about how to behave. My own common sense told me enough already.

Website can normally be found by using the www-button.

Quote from: "Matt Hartman"
if I were a person of wealth you'd have a new machine at your doorstep when you wake up in the morning. What you do with that is totally your choice.

I don't agree about the second issue. I would be pissed if somebody used my gift for a stupid goal. And tell so.
If this gift would happen, one thing is sure. I would not 'replace my system', but add a new one to those in my studio.

If it works, any system has its values and efficiency. I still have an old AT-machine running (with Norton Commander and FastTracker on it), to play some vintage Dos-games the easiest way. No need for Win-emulators, etc.

I follow.

Quote from: "Harbinger"
tend to want to change their environment, even if that environment includes other souls

Changing the environment is ok, if there's a reason for it of course. But one sees after some time, apart from realising the little influence one can achieve, that 'the solution' is often too much related to 'speed', 'size', or 'new', instead of enhancing the quality of the existing things by 'finetuning' the process.
And quick solutions on the short term often have unnecessary victims along the way.

Quote from: "Harbinger"
Sam_Zen can't exactly come out and say, "Well, wait until you're my age," because that's completely ineffectual

So it is and so I didn't come out. A paternalistic "C'mon son, I know better" is not my style.
I just wanted to say, that all those years, I have tried not to fall into the several traps of 'common' or 'commercial' goals, which I should follow. Being older also means having been more subject to efforts of brainwashing, to resist to.
So I keep on following the 'state of the art' developments, but with a critical eye.

Quote from: "Harbinger"
clock speed to about 150mHz. I've learned that THAT is way too slow. If the sound layers become too thick, the patterns stutter and skip

Right. Let's get back to the main subject again.
0. In this situation, the first thing to do is, to make sure that as less apps as possible are running along in the background. Many programs and hardware have their regular interrupts going on, which could disturb the streaming of the playback, or even burning a cd.
1. I don't know what VPC means
2. More efficient coding could be of help
3. Good point. Half the memory-size. Besides channels, there can be experimented with resolution, because sometimes you can achieve almost the same with a sample of 22 kHz instead of one of 44kHz.
4. Extra effects should be as minimised as possible as a start. Then search for the max addition.
For playback I mean. Don't forget that adding setup-settings like 'surround' or 'bass expansion' while saving as a wav-file still should work fine.

Quote from: "Harbinger"
I would like to know, if changing the sampling playback type (Linear, spline, XMMS, etc), if that affects the speed.

A nice point, I never payed much attention to this, but I would say : If you like to know, think of a test where you don't destroy the original, change the settings and analyse what happens.
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Offline LPChip

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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2006, 12:50:03 »
Although I'm a bit younger than Sam_Zen and Matt Hartman,  I can see both views with their pros. and cons.

In fact, I think I'm a little bit like Sam_Zen, except that I did bough a fast system, but that was because of gaming related issues, not tracking.

I don't use VSTi's that often (actually only to experiment, but not for real production). They're usually samples and instruments.

I do use VST effects for mixing/mastering purposes, but most effects I first try to archieve in the pattern editor (with exception from equalising)

My system is fast enough to run several VST's in a song. I guess that I haven't really found the max yet. In an earlier setup, where I dealth with VSTi's, I came to a limit of 9. That song was having some difficulties if a few songs were open and I played it. Now, I can have alot of songs open, inclusive VST's etc, and it plays fine.

So I guess the question remains: How much are you willing to taste VSTi's, and is it your "thing"? I can say that mine isn't using VSTi's, merelly because of the limitations I run across. You can't control it as much as a sample, and tweaking the sound untill you got what you want can be time consuming. The few times I was dealing with VSTi's I occasionally had an idea for a song. I loaded in the VSTi, started to tweak the parameters to get that sound I was after, and when I finally got it like that, I forgot what I wanted to make... :lol: Yeah, that sucks... I don't really like to use preset sounds, but making your own is often quite difficult, cus you tend to get back to the same sound.
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Offline Matt Hartman

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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2006, 15:56:46 »
I think there's some misunderstandings happening here. Perhaps it's my approach, I really couldn't tell you. Perhaps it's my hindering youth.

I think my main point (which I probably should have simply stated)
is that it's not the quantity of technology, rather the quality that clinches the puppy scruff on the back of my neck.  

The technology I'm speaking of has come a very long way dating back to when sound first began to be synthesized, easily when Sam was in his own youth.

What we are truly talking about is sound that can be shaped rather than using static samples. What this implies is that you have greater control of that sound. This also means you can articulate that sound based off your internal expression, VERY much like a "analog" instrument, rather then being left with a sample that naively has just one true articulation.

Now, I may be closed minded on this, but I personally think having this capability is far superior to that of a static sample. And I've used static samples for most of my career in tracking.

I would assume, (perhaps based off my inability to see the bigger picture at my youthful and inexperienced age of 32) that this would NATURALLY be more attractive to any musician/composer, regardless of what style he or she employs. Obviously if you enjoy using low grade samples and that's part of your art, then simply disregard what I'm preaching.

I don't approach most of the VSti's I use with an association that this one is for Trance, or this one is for Ambient, etc. There are certain VSTi's designed specifically for a predetermined genre, but there is no rule stating that it must be used for such. Again, the advantage is the ability to shape and articulate the sound to your heart's desire and particular style or direction you choose.

I know there's a lot of bare bone users here. I know many of you like to keep it simple. Which is totally fine, I have no real issues with that.

Yet, it IS possible that some of you are simply ignoring an overall advantage here, either because of your means which you feel are being dictated to you or your possible prejudices without truly giving it a chance to snag you.

I don't beleive in taking the same approach to every song I write. And that can go for both sides of the token. Some do, that's their forte. Okay, I can accept that and move on. It doesn't mean I have to agree however. And it doesn't mean I should close my mouth on the topic either.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but I honestly feel that some people write literal garbage around here that they are absolutely proud of and if they gave themselves the chance to see past themselves, they would see it as an obvious weaknesses.  If by saying this I'm a real jerk, that's fine. I'd rather be an honest jerk than a dishonest friend.

I AM NOT implying that Sam writes horrible music. I've listened to a few of his tracks and even though I hear some sound quality issue's as well and notice some technical inabilities, I can hear his musical achievement nonetheless. I read it as "I'm breaking away from Westernized music", and I can totally respect that effort. Because I think we all should globalize our musical awareness, it's healthy and downright fun, obviously Sam's way ahead on this effort.

Again, as usual, I'm speaking in general terms. If I come off as offensive, I apologize. Sometimes it's hard to be honest and for people not to feel like their feelings are being trampled.

As far as the comment about how youth are naturally more inclined to have a belief that they can change their surroundings. Well, those feelings are in place for a pretty universal reason. Without thought projection, we could truly never change anything, let alone anything within ourselves.

Though youth may not always carry the wisdom that comes from the type of experience that comes with time, you can't get wise without experiencing that youthful drive and ambition either. There's no one without the other.

One could look at accepting and settling in life as a way of not accepting the privlige and power that free will gives to us all, regardless of age.

I don't know where India would have been if Gandhi suddenly decided he was too old to make a difference in the lives of millions, let alone his own.

Or the Pope, or even the Dali Lama.

When I was in Pakistan, I saw very old men carrying very large loads on their backs and children that were hard and weathered in the eyes.

Age is only relative to ones perspective. You are never too old or too younger to stop making conscious choices instead of letting life dish out your dirty dealings. Take control. That's not youth, that's how consciousness works.

Now, I may be forceful in my opinions, and this is something I probably should look at and take responsibility for if I come to that conclusion. And I will.

But I think overall, I'm truly trying to be helpful in the end. Take it or leave it. Life.
Yeah, sure. Right. Whatever.

Offline Sam_Zen

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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2006, 02:06:26 »
Quote from: "Matt Hartman"
I can hear his musical achievement nonetheless. I read it as "I'm breaking away from Westernized music"

Almost right. I didn't 'break away from it', but I don't start with it in the first place. It's just one of those choices.

I thought I made my indifference about the matter of age-number already clear.

I don't have any objection against the term 'horrible music' by the way, as long as it was my intention
to make that compo sound 'horrible'.
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Offline tvdude

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2006, 20:53:55 »
...and all I asked for was the specs on the tracker program....lol...but since we're waxing philosophical....what is music?  You can't taste it, touch it, see it, or smell it....you can only hear it.  It pretty much is pure emotion; it evokes feelings within us.  Chances are, what you write musically will be both liked and hated by lots and lots of people.  So it doesn't really matter what style of music you write, and what you use to write it.  Preferences are personal.  Writing a drum pattern with a garbage can is no more right than writing with a full professional kit, or a set of spoons and pots, or a computer,  using samples as opposed to vsts....it's all preference.  

By the way, I'm just going to get the fastest cpu I can buy and hope for the best.  I actually do have the program stored  on a 486, but it has no sound card, so it doesn't set up properly..lol...I'm sure whatever I buy will be fine.
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Offline l8

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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2006, 10:37:25 »
i use PIII 1200/512 mb - pretty fast, but i don`t use vst and vsti - pure tracking.
but automation (when drawing envolope curve) somtimes may be slow. i dont know why...
nothing here-