Feedback needed on a work in progress.

[Randilyn]

I hope to finish this tomorrow, but I'd like to gather a list of what needs to be improved/fixed before then.  I would of course make the list myself, but after listening to something many, MANY times during composition, you tend to lose all sight of how it even sounds.

I'm doing this because one of my main problems is I always finish something before getting feedback on it, and then it's "done" and I don't feel like working on it anymore. =P  I think that maybe if I gather feedback *before* the final polishing phase, I can make it alot better, although my music is not very good to begin with. ;b

The file is in OGG format, encoded at 128kbps with a very good Ogg/Vorbis encoder (AoTuV), so it should be near CD quality, perceptually.  Note that the genre is quite heavy and industrial, with alot of distorted guitar crunch and chip sound.  If that's not your thing then just don't listen to it. :b

Link removed

[Matt Hartman]

Siloh,

I'm probably the last bloke you want giving feedback because I will be brutally honest with you.

Since you've opened the gates of virtual hell, I might as well pass through on to your uncertain ground.

This song needs major reworking:

1.) The intro is uneventful and predictable. 4 bars, then another layer, 2 more bars add another layer, 2 more bars and the whole band kicks in.

Is there anyway to rework it so it's a little more unpredictable and interesting?

2.)It has very little structure meaning the various sections sound, well, "sectional".

3.) The distorted guitars sound very choppy. How do you have your NNA's set? (New Note Action) I know this is an industrial song, but that doesn't mean the rhythm guitar should sound "sequenced". Could you imagine a real guy playing this, I think his hand would fall off like a loose shoe, mid way through the song.

3.) The drums have no punch, no pocket. The off accents that you have now are not complimenting the 4/4 rhythm structure. You have a constant snare on every count which is very annoying and clashing with other elements of the song. It's also making things sound more choppy and sluggish.

4.) I'm not sure about the lead melody. It has no essence other than sounding as if its being outputted from a start trek switch board.

Damn it Scottie.

5.) Overall, my opinion is that this song is not saying and/or expressing "much". It's straight forward, choppy and predictable. There are no dynamics and the structure is sectional. Your off rhythm is counter productive.

I've heard tracks similar to this 6 years ago.

For what it's worth, (not saying you think its worth much in not knowing me) I think you can do better by pushing yourself harder past yourself.

Take some time,  sit down and really digest what I'm saying.

Go through your song with a fine tooth comb and pick out things that you have doubts about. Tweak them, strive past yourself and come up with new ways to get around them. Really listen to what you're expressing, instead of slapping sounds together because they sound cool.

If this is the pinnacle of your skills Siloh, don't rest a trophy on it just yet.

I hope I don't offend. Yet, honesty will get you closer to where you want to be in less time. And when you are better, you'll be able to look at this song as a record of growth.

Good luck.

[Randilyn]

Matt Hartman:

You seem to've gotten the wrong impression that this is not how I intended the song to sound, since that has become my "style".  I gave fair warning that if it wasn't your thing then you shouldn't download it, I guess I didn't make it clear that the sound wasn't something I was attempting to change.

While I appreciate your comments, they aren't exactly what I was looking for.  Now I have to decide whether it is worth it to finish it or not, since I have already rewritten it 3 times and almost maxed out my musical capabilities at this time using every trick at my disposal.

Should I release it while it "needs major reworking", as you say, or should Ijust push it to the back of my hard drive, never to be seen again?  One thing is for certain, I'm certainly not wasting any more time on it, since it seems to be viewed by most "musicians" as "practice material" and should never see the light of day as-is.

Of course, we all have our fans...

- randi

[Matt Hartman]

Siloh, I appreciate your attitude on the onset. I do sense some sensitivity, which is okay. That's totally to be expected.

When you say, "not your thing" I understand what you're saying in the simplest of terms. However, all music is relative and I have a hard time finding any music that I don't attract some sort of interest in.

You should also know, I'm no stranger to industrial.

I think to stop investing in the song is a decision that carries some consequences. Its times like these that one can really step back and take an objective glance at ones work. Through the frustration often clears the smoke and unveils a voice waiting to be experienced.

It is better to try and fail than not try at all. No experience is a waste of time. I know that sounds a bit removed, but if you take a quiet moment you begin to see that it hits home more than you ever expected.

Besides, It's not for me to decide if you should or shouldn't, if that's good or bad. Only you really know that one my friend.

I can tell you that what you presented does not make the grade in my opinion.

More to the point, I don't beleive you wanted it to sound "that" way. In fact, I beleive it sounds that way because this is the skill you currently possess.

Yet, take comfort Siloh. Because the keyword here is, "currently". That should light a loving fire under your ass to get back in the thick of it and demand to the Gods that you are so much more.

I don't want to be a philosopher. I'm willing to look at the original file and make concise suggestions with action rather than words. If this is something of interest?

[SDSIMD]

Mister Matt "Hartman", I'll make this quick, simple, and dirty maybe:

After reading your post, I consider you as someone too perfectionist. I, however, strive not for what you seek, but for what touches my soul, what makes me really proud, the music that I feel suits me best. If someone doesn't like it, well. If someone likes it, hurray. If I/Cloaked/We post the song, it's a privilege to you, because we wanted to put it here in the first place. If you know your comments are going to hurt someone, in this case her, you might as well try to give the comments in a less painful way. Believe me, she will appreciate that. And so will I.

My point is:

I like the song.
My friend and I worked hard on it, and the result pleases me plenty.
Any comment/suggestion is better, when it doesn't hurt a person.

The intro was made by me, by the way.

Have a good day.

[Randilyn]

Sorry for that (if I even should be - I'm not sure yet), but maybe I should've mentioned that I didn't want to change the intro because it was written by my dear friend... Oh well.  I shouldn't have to play with people's feelings just to get them to like my music.  I guess there's a difference between made with skill and made with care.

Next time,  I recommend looking up my past works in the Free Music section beforehand to prepare yourself for what you are going to face.  You obviously didn't expect what you got, or you wouldn't made several comments that seemed humorous to you, but were actually somewhat hurtful to the artists. Something out of a Star Trek switchboard?  I'm not sure where your mind was at.  It's certainly not all bleep-bleep-bloop like you made it out to be, and I just don't think that comment was very deserving.

I'm out.  After that, I'll be lucky if I can get any help for my next work... *sigh*.

- randi

[Matt Hartman]

I'm out. After that, I'll be lucky if I can get any help for my next work... *sigh*.

I totally offered to help you. Offer still stands?

Siloh, even though it's my opinion I beleive the honesty in my answer holds a lot of merritt.

Describing the way I heard your song warranted the comment about Star Trek, because this is literally what your melody brought to mind. I don't know how else to say Star Trek other than saying Star Trek. Okay, let's not beat that point into the ground. Moving on...

I'm not trying to offend you or hurt your feelings or discourage you from tracking. Go back and read carefully without the ego attached and you will clearly see that I'm trying to guide you into pushing yourself harder. Stay focused and you will understand every word I said as a blueprint of positivity.

I realize it's hard not to feel a bit bruised when others don't share the same enthusiasm for what we feel is your expression. But guess what, others (including me) won't ever truly understand that juice you put into it. Though you've made your song public, the expression is a very personal thing.  However, others will judge it by how they experience it.
There's no way around that and I think that's the way it seems to work the best.

SDSIMD

Do I judge myself to the same standards as I judge others?

No.

In fact, anyone that knows me knows that I'm extremely hard on myself to a much greater extent. Because of this,  I'm honest with myself when I've written something that needs work.  I spend less time shinning my knuckles and more time evaluating my strengths and weaknesses.

If we are to speak of luck in this, I would say Siloh is lucky that someone took the time to give him the truth instead of blow smoke up his, well, you know the rest.

I understand you are being a good friend and want to come to his aid. But guess what, Siloh will be okay and hopefully would have learned something positive from this.

Continue to be a friend and the both of you look at what can be done better instead of being prideful, which is obviously leading to some sort of unwarranted bliss.

[Sam_Zen]

2 Siloh
The way this topic goes is one of the reasons why I never ask advice to fellow trackers while finishing a module.
Of course one can discuss length of the piece, the clock-speed, the volume of instruments in the balance, etc.

One has to accept the fact that any tracker-module can be performed in different ways, so in the end the author self just has to make a decision for a final version. Listening to the public can bring confusion, trying to listen to the piece as someone in the public, can be of much more help. Write your own review.

[Matt Hartman]

Write your own review

This is good practice if done correctly.

The problem is, that when you're emotionally and mentally involved with a piece, it's harder to be openly objective.

I think opening it up to the public is good for the following reasons:

1.) The public is less bias.
2.) The public generally doesn't have a motive acting as a second party
3.) The public response as a whole can tell you if you're song is reaching anyone, and if so, you can look at who it's reaching and come up with a possible reason/s as to why. This is how one learns their style and learns their audience.

We can all say, "I do it for the love of the art" or "I do it for myself".
I do not doubt that at times these reasons are very valid.

Yet, one would not feel the need to share it publicly and then feel torn once that public vindication was not received if it were an act of pure self expression.

However, self expression is not what we're dealing with in the topic, since the poster (Siloh) opened up the forum asking for advice, etc.

I think if you're going to open up and ask your fellow peers for advice, you should prepare yourself for some honesty. And you should understand that honesty does not play favors. It is what it is.

Yet, in the same fold, its also great, because we can take it or leave it without judgement.

I know some of you will see what I did as a callus or smug thing. But I know my intentions and I'm hoping we see a better formulated song come of of this experience.

Sharing your personal love with others takes some courage. Yet, if the ego is large, what we call courage is more like insanity.

[Matt Hartman]

I find it interesting that this thread has had 143 viewers and only 4 individual posters including myself.

I'm not sure what this indicates but the deficit seems rather too large to ignore.

If I'm coming off too strongly and opinionated I'm not doing this intentionally. In fact, I'm trying to open up this thread to some intellectual thoughts not only about Siloh's song in question, but the review process as well.

You know, I remember the TiS days when I was elected to become a reviewer. It was fun at first, even engaging. But over the course of time it became a very daunting and laborious process because a lot of horrible material was coming through the lines and it was my responsibility to give my honest opinion.

Despite my honest efforts, 9 out of 10 times the knowledge I tried to share fell victim to "How dare you give me a 5, I worked 3 weeks on this song, insert personal attack here _ _ _ _ _ _  _ _ _ _ _ _". When the song sounded obviously, shall I say "unattractive".

Regardless of the egos I wounded, I found it too difficult not to provide the truth because I felt like if I didn't do this, there would be a great shift in the scene. As if one could write a horrible track and think it grand. There's just no balance in that. And when it comes down to the last thought, there's no warrant for it either.

There shouldn't have to be an amendment to an opinion.

Even though Siloh took it relatively well, the general negative mood was often the same.

I know he possibly worked hard on that tune. He may even feel like it was his best work. I can't say for sure. But what I can say is that this particular tune did not make the grade in my book.

The question is, did he ask for the opinions of those who agree with him only or did he ask in a general sense?

The way I see it, he has a conscious choice here. He can go on and dismiss opposing opinions and try to blanket it with "If it's not your thing, don't d/l it". (which is basically reverse psychology 101) or he can drop the pride and take a look and investigate if what I was saying (and others may be thinking=143) carries some truth.

[xaimus]

Matt Hartman pretty much summed up most of my thoughts over this, though I personally like the lead synthesizer.

Aside from that, the drums are too quiet and the choir/lead synth section is too loud--it sounds like it dominates the rest of the track.

[Randilyn]

Aside from that, the drums are too quiet and the choir/lead synth section is too loud--it sounds like it dominates the rest of the track.

That's more along the lines of what I was looking for.  Small steps, not blatant song-crushers or someone else wanting me to utilize their talent to "fix" what I "broke" in the first place.  Thank you.

@Matt Hartman:

For the record, I had already distributed this to the public a bit.  Aside from a few issues here and there (like the intro not being "epic enough"), I haven't found anyone who didn't like it yet.  In fact, a few of them were what allowed me to gather up the courage to make this thread in the first place.

No offense, but I think you just need to accept the fact that you went overboard no matter how many long posts you make explaining it.  You should probably learn the difference between a teaching and a preaching.

You didn't damage my ego, you damaged my self-confidence.  I never had an ego to begin with, and if you knew anything about me at all (suprising that you don't - considering how many years I've been here), you would've known that before repeatedly accusing me of egotistical pride.

What do I mean?  Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the difference between someone who churns out songs and always gloats about their accomplishments, and someone who can barely scrape up enough willpower and motivation to finish one song they've been working on for months.  Did I put alot of hard work into it?  Yes.  Does it matter?  Yes.  When you put alot of love into something, it's going to be good to someone.  Like I said, we all have our fans.

Next time, why don't you just say the song sucks and leave me alone?  I'm not interested in your analogies if they're going to require me to remake the song.

Hell, before a few days ago, I was ashamed to even call them "songs", so I always instinctively used "tracks" instead.  Why is it that whenever I get up the courage to finally do something, someone has to come smack it down, while appearing to be completely harmless and even helpful?  It's appalling, really.

- randi

[(>o_o)>]

Well, I liked it for the most part, if that counts for anything. If anything, maybe change the intro a little and turn down the guitar a little bit(it becomes slightly, I don't know, overbearing towards the end, heh). Nice job

[Sam_Zen]

A very interesting thread here so far, i must say. Disregarding mentioned ego-aspects, being not very relevant.
- With own review I meant, that in the end, in all plain honesty, the composer himself is the best to judge the work, because of knowing all details of the making process. The lazyness or the intense effort.
- Asking the public for advice during the making process, can have its dangers. A drive to please them, instead of pleasing your song.
- But I must admit that this is a somewhat different situation, because comment is asked to fellow composers, which is another category. Who are supposed to give advice on more technical things, instead of the kind of content.

2 Siloh
Indeed maybe a bit of stretch of the intro, but for the rest, leave it like that I would say. Nice piece.
Don't forget, that a tracker-module never has a single output of the composition. Other versions in time are possible by duplicating a pattern in the pattern-row, etc. With the same composed material.