Burning Man grabs participant's content for itself

Started by uncloned, August 13, 2009, 14:36:18

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Harbinger

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"I just want a reasonable discussion about this, without flaming elements.

We would like that too. But LV's assessment of ToB's license as insulting leads one to the conclusion that she's an idiot for restricting dissemination of HER work.

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"
If you want to 'own' a song, don't publish it.

Edit : in fact, don't even record it.

Are you serious? You believe that a creator or producer of anything gives up ownership when it is made real? Perhaps this is at the core of our disagreement.

The whole PURPOSE (think about that word carefully -- the meaning is exact) of an artist is to make manifest what is in his mind. When it is transferred to the media of his choice, our moral tradition (at least since the Age of Enlightenment) is that the manifestation is still the artist's and he can claim it. He can disseminate COPIES of it either by gift; by exchanging for it goods, services, or an exchange medium (money); or by sharing it either with compatriots of his choosing, or with the general public. In every case (except the very latter) he can restrict its "re-dissemination" UNLESS he is releasing the rights of ownership. If the receivor of a copy of the work refutes the license by disabusing himself of it, breaking at the very least an implicit if not non-binding "contract", then we can say the recievor is doing something at the very least unethical and at worst illegal. The LEGAL aspect i am not interested in because each sovereignty sets its own laws. But there is a common morality that tradition has brought us. Myself, i like the tradition, because it is respectful of people's liberties and property.

I recount this not to educate the witless, but to clarify the issues at hand.

Now, not only has technology brought us new questions of ownership, but also a fading of common ethics. If the majority abided by a common understood tradition, then we could solve the debate of technology and how it interferes with the ownership of art. But with the ongoing decay of common acceptable morals and ethics, people are convincing themselves that producers of things have no proprietary claims and have no right to restrict others. This is the new school of thought from which LV has been attending, but it's an old school: piracy -- hence the term.

So for those who have respected ToB's simple license, she appreciates that i'm sure. But most folks here did not come to her defense, and LV's silly notions were instead supported, and now she only trusts a couple of forum members out of all this. (And she has demanded that i not ask her to give this website another chance.) My point is, when people do not respect the licenses of others, it STIFLES art, it doesn't spur it.

uncloned

I think the preferred solution is the "star trek" future where people don't have to worry about money and the complications that it brings.

I also believe we should retain authorship of our expressions and that derivative should be allowed with acknowledgment of the work and author used in the derivation.

This is not for ego. There are practical reasons to know authorship - such as being able to find more work by the same author.

We all stand on the shoulders of our contemporaries and predecessors. This is an inescapable fact.  Nothing is 100% new, we only add our own uniqueness to the experience of life as expressed in our work. So this too should bee humbly recognized (as practical).

uncloned

Burning Man responds to the EFF

nice pictures too.

http://blog.burningman.com/?p=4599

QuoteFrankly, we'd rather gouge out our own eyes than get in the way of that kind of personal expression in our community. That's why we've engaged with groups like the EFF and Creative Commons to continue exploring and evolving our policies to reflect the evolution of intellectual property itself. In fact, Burning Man's lead attorney on intellectual property, Terry Gross, was the EFF's first General Counsel — and he wrote the very licenses to which Ms. McSherry objects in the post, but she unfortunately fails to mention that their ongoing conversation behind the scenes has, even before her post, been helping us to frame the next step in evolving the licensing of image use at Burning Man.

Sam_Zen

Ooh.. come one.!.. "fading of common ethics" - "ongoing decay of common acceptable morals"..
Are these the problems people suffer who oppose your opinion ? Talking about insulting...

QuoteEdit : in fact, don't even record it.
Are you serious? You believe that a creator or producer of anything gives up ownership when it is made real? Perhaps this is at the core of our disagreement.
Serious ? Perhaps the core here is a severe lack of humour..
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Harbinger

Sorry, Zen, doesn't fly. I'm complimented for my sense of humor. You gave me no indication that were being humorous. And i'm glad to hear that you were being funny. I KNEW you couldn't be serious! But i'll be the first to admit, the stereotype of the European (in America) is a socialist druggie! :P

You do have a sense of humor, don't you? ::)

uncloned

not my stereotype

mine is european people are those who graciously live with much less than americans - most americans don;t have a clue how lucky they are


but don't worry - soon our standard of living will be reduced

Harbinger

"Lucky?"

I think not. Neither the grace of God nor the blood, sweat, and tears of all who fought for our (American) liberties can be attributed to luck, no?

Blessed maybe is a better word. Oh but we can't say that. That would imply there's a God finding favor in us. Can't have that! :evil:

g

I'd rather be stereotyped as a socialist druggie then a self-righteous, illiterate, right wing, close-minded, Christian warmonger.  :wink:

uncloned

Quote from: "Harbinger""Lucky?"

I think not. Neither the grace of God nor the blood, sweat, and tears of all who fought for our (American) liberties can be attributed to luck, no?

Blessed maybe is a better word. Oh but we can't say that. That would imply there's a God finding favor in us. Can't have that! :evil:

no... the luck is yours for being born an American

And why do you say America is blessed? Why should America be blessed? And what exactly is the form of that blessing?

And.... I guess America wasn't blessed for the Indians?

And then is Somalia cursed? Most people there have a very poor life materially. And if so why would God curse Somalia? What did the people of Somalia (or worse the very ground) do that was so bad?

I believe in God.


And I believe in reason, rational thought and common sense.


Every army in WWI and WWII had the blessing of a pope, minister, or priest. (Yes, I believe even the soviets.)

So... who's side was God on?

People say and do a lot in God's name. Not all of it is good or even rational.

Louigi Verona

Wow, what discussions.

I think a lot of problems arise from the fact that people try to look at everything from a perspective of ego and personality. However, life is more interesting than that. I have clearly expressed my views in the appropriate topic before, so I will not go into any discussions whatsoever here.

I do not know Harbinger personally, so when mentioning Tassel Blue case I did not mean any personal insults or anything - for that I am sorry. I brought up the case because I believe that it is relevant. If nobody sees it, I may wish to discuss it in a calm and respectful manner.

Sam_Zen

A discussion between mature people doesn't have to go calm all the way.
We're not having a cosy cup of tea here with a bisquit talking about the moss on the paveyard.
So no problem with that.

People can have different perspectives.
But if my arguments are considered weaker because I'm not a reli person..
Well.. Haughtiness comes before the fall.

But I'm glad that I can strongly confirm Harb's stereotype :
I'm an anarchist druggie for about 45 years now..

Edit: never mind the bollocks, let's get back to more spiritual things, like music.
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Louigi Verona

To clear the matter up, this evening I will record a podcast on this exact situation. It will discuss property (intellectual), authorship, copyright and then comment on this exact situation - explain in what way this situation is similar to us being presented a music with a restrictive license.

I do not aim for everyone to agree with me, but rather see my reasoning. A lot of what I would say, though, is obvious to people who gave "intellectual property" any serious thought.

arinlares

I'm a little startled by the personal attacks, so I'll stay away from that.

I read through the Burning Man Terms and Conditons, and found that you can label a photo "Burning Man 2009" for non-commercial, private use.  I'm pretty sure that posting a picture from Burning Man on Facebook, labeled as "Burning Man 2009" would qualify as private, non-commercial use.  The article in question seems to be steeped more in paranoia than genuine concern, IMHO.  The contract only prohibits the use of the images by a third party for commercial use, which would, I guess, be you post the picture online, and the online service uses the image for profit, which is unlikely, anyway.

Sam_Zen

Well. if it's no problem copying data for private, non-commercial use, what's the point of labeling it ?
Because that's already permitted in most countries under normal law.

I could declare having the 'Burning Woman 2009' label would protect you from commercial purposes,
if you would upload there... duh..

M$ declared that all email content at Hotmail would be their copyright. Which is silly of course.
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psishock

Quote from: "arinlares"I'm a little startled by the personal attacks, so I'll stay away from that.
What?! You simply cannot do that, either pick Louigi's or Harbinger's side and flame the other one to the ground. Now you made me angry with your unreasonable actions.
I'm as calm as a synth without a player.  (Sam_Zen)