1.17.02.53 Routing of Master VSTi Chain Incorrect

[Harbinger]

Full Version:
OpenMPT v1.17.02.53

Has the bug occured in previous versions? If yes, please specify version(s): Not sure.


Description of the bug:There is a problem with using a chain of VST FX in the Master setting in the Plugin section of the General page. Below is a mockup of the problem:


I have set up the chain of VSTs as normal, except the only route assigned to the chain is the Master Output setting. However, i need to control when and how much the audio gets sent, so the first VST has been assigned to an instrument. This way i can use a macro, and assign the SFx to "Plugin Wet/Dry" to control it.
VST 1 is routed to VST 2, which is NOT set to Master, and since there's no need to control it, i have not assigned it to an instrument.
The solid line represents what should happen. However, the Master output is being routed through the 2 VSTs separately, with VST 1 being properly treated and handled, but not routing next to VST 2. Instead, it operates as if VST 2 was not in the chain and had its Master checkbox checked (represented by the dotted line).
This was tried with various VSTs in case it was a VST issue, but it happened with a variety of them.

How often does it happen?: Not sure.

How to reproduce (step by step description): See above (it's complicated )

[g]

You don't control the wet/dry ratio of the entire chain, just of the individual plugins. If you set VST1 to 100%dry, it will send the input signal unaffected to VST2.

[LPChip]

I indeed think there's a configuration issue in your chain.

If you ensure that only the first plugin of your chain is assigned to an instrument or a channel or the master checkbox has been checked and the other plugins in the chain aren't assigned nor their master checkbox are checked it should use the correct path.

Secondly, you have the wet/dry ratio. If its 100% dry, it will send the output of the plugin to the next plugin in the chain. If its 100% wet, it will basically skip this plugin and head to the next in the chain.

If you want to control the volume of the entire chain, you can succeed in controlling the wet/dry of the last plugin in the chain only. Assign that plugin to an empty channel, and put your Zxx and /xx commands in there.

[g]

I indeed think there's a configuration issue in your chain.

That's what she said

If you ensure that only the first plugin of your chain is assigned to an instrument or a channel or the master checkbox has been checked and the other plugins in the chain aren't assigned nor their master checkbox are checked it should use the correct path.

There is only one path in the chain. You can't change it.

Secondly, you have the wet/dry ratio. If its 100% dry, it will send the output of the plugin to the next plugin in the chain. If its 100% wet, it will basically skip this plugin and head to the next in the chain.

This is how it works, except that you got dry and wet the wrong way round. Think of the effect of the plugin as water. Wet=full effect. Dry=no effect.

If you want to control the volume of the entire chain, you can succeed in controlling the wet/dry of the last plugin in the chain only. Assign that plugin to an empty channel, and put your Zxx and /xx commands in there.

You can only use the wet/dry control for controlling the volume of instrument plugins, as they have no input sound and a completely dry sound will thus be silence. For effect plugins the plugin will ALWAYS pass sound on, if dry then it passes what comes in, if wet then it processes and passes the result to the next plugin in the chain. If you set the last plugib to 100% dry, it will simply bypass the last plugin.

A question for the developers: How do plugins deal with dry sound? Could there be phase shifting phenomena if you set an effect plugin to 50% wet/dry?

[Harbinger]

Good info. I will check this out. I thought instinctively that the FIRST VST would control the wet/dry response of the entire chain, but apparently it's the LAST.

Will do more tests soon.

[g]

No, no, no. You can't control the wet/dry ratio of the entire chain, only of the individual plugins.

[Harbinger]

Well, that's different. So should i set all of the Wet/Dry sliders for the secondary VSTs (down the line in the Master chain) to 0%? I thought if the Master setting was not enabled for those, the Wet-Dry setting would apply to the incoming signal from the preceding VST.

[BooT-SectoR-ViruZ]

This post refers to the general creation of a VST-chain, but can also be applied to the 'master-chain' that you set up.

Well, that's different. So should i set all of the Wet/Dry sliders for the secondary VSTs (down the line in the Master chain) to 0%? I thought if the Master setting was not enabled for those, the Wet-Dry setting would apply to the incoming signal from the preceding VST.

depends on what you want to do, buddy....

as 'G' said, every plugin has it's own wet/dry setting and it'll have a different effect when using VST or VSTi. wet/dry sliders cannot be linked to one another and the chain (output to) will not change this.

carefully read the quote below again.

You can only use the wet/dry control for controlling the volume of instrument plugins, as they have no input sound and a completely dry sound will thus be silence. For effect plugins the plugin will ALWAYS pass sound on, if dry then it passes what comes in, if wet then it processes and passes the result to the next plugin in the chain. If you set the last plugib to 100% dry, it will simply bypass the last plugin.

means for VSTi:
100% wet -> 100% volume
100% dry -> total silence

means for VST-effects:
100% wet -> input signal (sample or VSTi) is processed 100%
50% wet -> half of the input signal will be processed, 50% will not be affected
100% dry -> input signal is not processed but bypassed


ask yourself the following question:
how loud do i want my initial signal (vsti) to be? how much of this effect do i want to apply to the sound i'm playing (vst effect).

[Harbinger]

Yes, that was the initial issue. What i think is a bug is the fact that the wet-dry slider (the one at the bottom of the plugin Mixer Section), when applied to a secondary VST FX in a Master chain, SHOULD control that VST's wet-dry from the preceding VST. Instead the route is passing from the Master audio to the secondary VST (the dotted line in the first posts' image).

Now is this in fact a bug or merely a limitation? Or am i not understanding the role of the wet-dry slider?

BTW let's assume we're working strictly with VST FX not VSTi's.

[BooT-SectoR-ViruZ]

could you please supply an example module for this?
right now i'm not 100% sure what you mean anymore....

yet again:
no matter what you chain up there - no plugin's wet/dry will ever affect another one's
(and it's highly appreciated that it doesn't... would basically screw everything up)

[Saga Musix]

What about this one? Shall I move it somewhere else?

[Harbinger]

Let me do some more testing, Jojo. I've been doing other things and haven't had a chance to make sure the audio route is as expected.

[Saga Musix]

Even after three years I fail to see issue here, and that seems to be the viewpoint of the other posters as well => closing.