Author Topic: [discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music  (Read 10369 times)

Offline uncloned

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,741
    • http://www.chrisvaisvil.com
  • Operating System: Sam Zen - RIP
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2009, 02:07:54 »
perhaps I should add - that the Abo's drugs are also a means to obtain the oneness with the cosmos - drugs/music/dancing - all part of the package - I'm not sure, upon reflection, if the author of the book LV is reading should divorce (as far as I understand) one from the other aspects.

I'm not denying your experiences  - but the position of the author is making generalities I'm questioning.

Offline Louigi Verona

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.louigiverona.com/
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2009, 08:13:22 »
The problem with the analysis of cultures of the past is that we try to judge their actions with our thinking. This is one of the most serious and yet very common mistakes people make.

The general belief that technology is progress and that living in a cave is less cool then living in a luxurious house with Internet and all that other technology - but this is just our way of thinking. We've seen how differently one can look at a simple thing as innovation. Imagine people living in an absolutely different mindset. Their values can be very alien to ours.

So we do not know what the direction towards technology and our way of thinking gave us and what made us part with. This is a very important point, think about it.

The simplicity of the earlier civilization should not necessarily be looked upon as an undeveloped complex civilization of today. Simplicity has qualities and properties which are lost in the transition to complexity, although complexity does give more freedom and more possibilities, but all those possibilities stop embracing the whole of existence and instead have a smaller field of operation. (uh oh, I hope I am clear on what I mean).

So I would look at the earlier world as a phase which is unreachable from today and a mindset that is hardly reproducible today. And thus all our judgment of earlier civilizations should be limited and will always have a big portion of errors and misinterpretations.

Even the differences between nations are so big that people can't understand each other at all. They are like aliens. A good example is a French movie Fear and Trembling (Stupeur et tremblements).

Offline uncloned

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,741
    • http://www.chrisvaisvil.com
  • Operating System: Sam Zen - RIP
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2009, 13:46:29 »
Quote from: "Louigi Verona"
The problem with the analysis of cultures of the past is that we try to judge their actions with our thinking. This is one of

So I would look at the earlier world as a phase which is unreachable from today and a mindset that is hardly reproducible today. And thus all our judgment of earlier civilizations should be limited and will always have a big portion of errors and misinterpretations.

).


We can tap into the existing aboriginal cultures to get some understanding.

Is it good to call earlier cultures "simple" ? - surely in terms of human interaction there were as complex as contemporary cultures.

Offline Sam_Zen

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,689
    • http://www.xs4all.nl/~samzen/
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2009, 22:59:09 »
Yep. Is the conversation between two blackbirds just a simple twitter, compared to our human grammar ?
0.618033988

Offline Louigi Verona

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.louigiverona.com/
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2009, 12:11:23 »
As I am reading further into the book its more and more difficult to summarize without raising too much questions on your part, guys, questions that can be answered only by reading the whole book.

Besides, the book isn't about repetition anyway, there are just interesting thoughts on repetition.

As for what I think about repetition is that it is not as simple a matter. In the above posts we've seen how it can be a very serious and intended thing. Repetition should be handled properly.

Repetition is the core of things. Look around - there are never truly singular things in the world. One exact star is unique only in the combination of certain properties, but it is one of many other stars. Same for all phenomena we see around - it is always a variation of one model.

Repetition becomes boring only if the listener awaits entertainment. If his attention is tuned to change - repetition will seem boring to him. However, if one is attuned to another mode of perception, the one that does not favour, require or mark out change, repetition will be normal space of existence.

Another interesting thing about repetition that I'd like to share is how it requires the listener to "work". When a listener is exposed to changing music, he is passive - he is being entertained and he needs not do anything. But if he is exposed to direct repetition, he becomes active and starts supplying the change by his perception. With time his perception changes, it's as if he is holding the sound in his hands and turning it around and trying to cast light on it to see how it changes and starts to move in the rhythm of repetition and in some manner tries to become one with it, to tune to its rhythm and frequency to understand it, experience it, to move with it.

As an example, please try this tune:
http://www.louigiverona.ru/files/serenade1.mp3 (11Mb)

It is direct repetition, but if you start listening to it, you will soon notice that it does give you development. And your ears, your mind become active members of this development - you become involved into the movement because it invites you to by not delivering the change, and instead asking for you to deliver it.

Offline psishock

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,296
  • Gender: Male
  • Operating System: win8(64)
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2009, 16:33:27 »
I've listened to the piece, liked it, and after a very short time already got some ideas for nice solo melody to it, some chord strings and structure changing variations. But that's because we are composers, i'm having those ideas popping out from my head even if i listen to more developed pieces. If a common ear would listen to these repetitive, basic form pieces, they most likely will find it boring after a short time, shouldn't expect from them to start composing, developing the song further in their heads.

Merlin's Magic - The Heart Of Reiki (originally over 1hour long, but we have a 10min fragment on youtube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWvS9llbSJ0&fmt=18
This is basically a very calm, repetitive, but yet charming and variable enough piece, for most ears to enjoy.

About repetition and the universe, well we are living in the nature, but somehow we are not entirely part of it, mostly because of one main thing. As long people can think for their own, they can choose to differ, to have their own, new ways. One can interpret the "music" (chains of sounds) in any form, entertainment, relaxation, aid, self expression, are one of the most common.
I'm as calm as a synth without a player.  (Sam_Zen)

Offline Louigi Verona

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.louigiverona.com/
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2009, 04:41:48 »
Quote
About repetition and the universe, well we are living in the nature, but somehow we are not entirely part of it


This is exactly the mindset which I am speaking about - the mindset that is so different and that tends to consider humans not part of the Universe.

Quote
and after a very short time already got some ideas for nice solo melody to it, some chord strings and structure changing variations.  If a common ear would listen to these repetitive, basic form pieces, they most likely will find it boring after a short time, shouldn't expect from them to start composing, developing the song further in their heads.


But this is not what I was speaking about at all. The development of this piece does not mean that in your mind you should develop it literally - melodically. Try to listen to it for what it is. Try to understand it just like you are listening to rain, to a waterfall. Do not focus your mind on the need of direct variation. I am not sure if I can explain it any further.

Offline uncloned

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,741
    • http://www.chrisvaisvil.com
  • Operating System: Sam Zen - RIP
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2009, 11:22:08 »
Quote from: "Louigi Verona"
Quote
About repetition and the universe, well we are living in the nature, but somehow we are not entirely part of it


This is exactly the mindset which I am speaking about - the mindset that is so different and that tends to consider humans not part of the Universe.



ok, here I understand this point - the Christian POV is to reject this world for the next.

It is a pervasive POV in western society.

Offline Louigi Verona

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.louigiverona.com/
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2009, 13:54:02 »
NO, I didn't mean it in that way. If there is such a POV and it thinks it is Christian, then it misinterprets religion in general. It is not something that you use to worship the future and instead reject the present. This is actually closer to Indian philosophy.

What I was referring to was that in the past people were more keen on being one with the existence, nature, cosmos. Today people do the opposite - they define themselves by putting themselves away from the existence, by trying to change it.

If anyone wants to discuss this and feels that the forum format is too rigid for that, please feel free to suggest Skype.

Offline uncloned

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,741
    • http://www.chrisvaisvil.com
  • Operating System: Sam Zen - RIP
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2009, 14:07:17 »
But seriously LV - I was raised a Catholic - you are taught to put off the pleasure of this world for the next and partaking in most of those pleasures is a sin of some sort. The Amish (and others) take that a step further and reject all (of what they define) as technology.


And First Peoples did build things and changed their environment. There are lots of examples of this. Even animals will change their environment - like beavers building dams, termites mounds, ants and rabbits underground habitats.

Offline Louigi Verona

  • Extreme artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.louigiverona.com/
[discussion] repetition - its origins and role in music
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2009, 14:30:43 »
The New Testament is largely misinterpreted as the whole religion is. Again, I feel that a forum is a wrong place to discuss this simply because it is too much to type, but to try it short - the world pleasures should not be rejected, they should be used as means to come closer to God. Saying that they are not worthy is not right. And this is not just my opinion, but... too much background and explanations to do for a forum, sorry %) This is an interesting discussion though

Quote
And First Peoples did build things and changed their environment. There are lots of examples of this. Even animals will change their environment - like beavers building dams, termites mounds, ants and rabbits underground habitats.


Having to change an environment and having a mindset of requiring revolution, change as something that defines your life are different things. This is what I mean.