[Album] Sonic Epiphany (archive)

uncloned · May 13, 2009, 12:53:51

I listened yesterday at work - perhaps I'll listen again.

Its hard to keep track of what is what as far as titles go when it is an album.

My take is everything is ranked from good to excellent - I'll try to get some names. Some of the piece could use more development IMHO - others are quite well done IMHO. (Truth b Told one of the best)

uncloned · May 15, 2009, 13:45:56

I'm not sure conditions like these can be considered binding because there is no proof that the conditions were read, let alone agreed to. And once you've released -anything- on the internet you've effectively lost all control of the distribution - and even with a physical CD this is reality - you've just made it a bit harder. And this is true for sampling of your work too. (In some people's opinion a wide voluntary distribution by fans would be considered a success!)

And while I think Tassel of Blue's and your music is quite good and professional, I consider the music Sam and Psi (among others) post professional too - and if I understand correctly they have / are making money off of their work.

I am dismayed to have seen this crash here on modplug - this forum has been an oasis of sanity for the most part. I appreciate the work of everyone here and hope we can put aside the differences and get back to being friends and enjoying each other's work.

"It's the music stupid!"

Tassel of Blue · May 15, 2009, 21:36:13

now i think this was big mistake.my friends here have no prblm not giving away our music.but pppl on th internet feel lik they can do whtever they want with othr ppls work.its a matter of trust and respect.

harbinger warned me ths migt happen,so i gess im not so mad,jus disappointed.if u dont hav enugh memroy or whatever, thats th same thing as if the music was on cd an u didnt have a cd playr.we all hav to do without somtimes.

im sorry u all didnt lik it(well im not SORRY but u knw what i mean),but me and harbingr lik to dance to th album, plus stuff by psishock and other trance artists

Harbinger · May 16, 2009, 00:38:25

Let me just say, i'm disappointed too. I harangued my best friend for several weeks trying to get her to trust the people at these forums, and her only wish was that whoever downloaded the album would keep it to themselves (she has her reasons which she is entitled to). Everything we did was for that purpose. But a big production was made out of THAT rather than the actual album. Doesn't anyone else consider that shameful?

No one here is obligated to listen, but if you were interested and you wanted to have your own copy, then just honor a simple wish -- and considering that it's free music, why is anyone complaining?

There is also a misconception about what is going on here. She is not selling you her music, for sure, but she is not GIVING it to you either. She is SHARING it. Let's put it this way:

If she told you she had some new music, and you were interested in hearing it, would you (if you could) invite her to your home to play it so you could hear for yourself? What if she said, "Fine. Under one condition. You can't record what i play." What, suddenly you don't want to hear her music? She wants to control who has recordings of HER music and YOU feel as if you have a right to own it?

You have a right to own whatever's in your brain, but not what's in the air. You have no right to see anyone's personal paintings, nor any right to read anyone's poems, nor any right to hear anyone's songs. They can give it to you and sell it to you, but they lose (ethically) some control over it because, well, you own a COPY. But when someone SHARES something with you, they give you the privilege of perceiving it, nothing else. And that intention was all clearly spelled out.

Apparently most of you thought the music wasn't even worth the respect of someone's simple request, so that's that.

As for Sam_Zen, i understand your limitations; i had the same this time last year. Perhaps we can make a special dispensation for you, but it's ToB's call. (BTW if you have any restrictions on DLing and listening to your music, pencil me in! I have a green hat!

) And no, I don't trust anyone, but Tassel of Blue trusts even fewer!

As for Louigi, sounds like you just hate rules. Your ethics and worldview are your own. But where they conflict with ours, there may be a problem. I like some of your music, but we should keep our discussions to a minimum. However, i do thank you for offering your site for possible UL. :wink:

For those who supported this brand new artist and wanted to brighten her debut, we thank you and we'll consider you in the future.

Sam_Zen · May 16, 2009, 00:40:36

(wrote this before seeing LV's latest post, I was replying to Tassel)
Well, when decoding this message, I may be change my mind about listening to it..

2 Louigi : I was not talking about my own technical DL-limitations, but on behalf of others with less.

This situation of a recording of a live performance, and the conditions about it, is an interesting issue.
The air vibrates by some concert, the air is not owned by anyone, the movements of the air are recorded.
Then what ?

uncloned · May 16, 2009, 05:07:01

If you ask me the whole thread here is just crazy and should be about the music....

I certainly don't think ToB or Harbinger deserved the fun that's been poked at them.

And I certainly think the license agreement doesn't reflect reality and the announcement could have been worded... softer.

Perhaps a better tact would have been just to ask people not to share it beyond modplug.

I personally think that would have been clearer and no one would have had an issue with it - not even LV - and seems to be your real intent anyway.

The vast majority of the posters here are fairly serious about their work and respect others. I still think it is a good forum for posting music such as yours for a considered opinion. My wish is that we actually get back to the music instead of the politics in this forum - General Chatter is for that IMHO.

I'm glad to host your work (or remove it as you wish) - here are the stats so far.

us   United States   us   4   4   183.03 MB

ua   Ukraine   ua   2   2   183.03 MB

no   Norway   no   2   2   183.03 MB

au   Australia   au   1   1   91.52 MB

de   Germany   de   1   1   91.52 MB

cs   Former Czechoslovakia   cs   1   1   91.52 MB

ru   Russian Federation   ru   1   1   91.52 MB

uncloned · May 16, 2009, 05:17:17

And one last note - I think it should be said that if people don't attach restrictions or license to their does not mean they think their music is worth less.

Some people firmly believe music should be free (which is the original scene ethic) and the music is awesome in every respect.

Some people like my friend Micheal put thousands of dollars and a year and a half of work refining what him and his wife did and want to make a living off of it. So he does not let you download his album or any tracks for free.

either way is really ok.

However one needs to make up one's mind - if you let it on the internet it IS released. Like I told my friend Micheal - people can grab your stream - so think about how many preview songs you want to give away.... if the media hits someone's PC - they can probably can find a tool to grab it if they want. It is just reality.

uncloned · May 16, 2009, 05:21:52

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"(

This situation of a recording of a live performance, and the conditions about it, is an interesting issue.
The air vibrates by some concert, the air is not owned by anyone, the movements of the air are recorded.
Then what ?

In America they confiscate your recording device....

You are technically not allowed to even take pictures.

However, the ubiquity of cell phone cameras with still and video and sound is making this very hard to enforce. Personally I think it is very short sighted - nothing can sell you more than a committed excited fan wanting to share the great experience they just had at your concert... but that's just me.

Louigi Verona · May 16, 2009, 07:03:22

QuoteAs for Louigi, sounds like you just hate rules.

It sounds to me that you either haven't read a word I wrote or you simply did not understand anything. Which is a pity. It only shows how deep proprietary thinking got into people during the latest century.

But let me repeat this one last time: if you would've just asked, I would've gladly complied. When you attach a license which officially declares me a "criminal", "thief" or whatever nasty word you'll find because I share the music with more than 8 people - this is a different situation and an attack on one's freedom.

In my posts above I have tried to explain the moral dilemma of the situation. If you have read it and pictured yourself in the place of a person who is obliged to fulfil the terms of such a license - there should be no questions. This is a serious situation.

Each person has common ethics. They do not need to be written down into a license. No honest person would want to do plagiarism. But you chose to make up a license.
And think - why 8 people? Why not 9? You were very specific. I reacted that way because these licenses do not come out of thin air. They are not requests, they are orders. And when I am listening or sharing music, I do not want to be overlooked by strict licenses which control my every movement. You ordered to not give the tune to more than 8 people, even if it happens to be my friend, another musician will require not to drink tea while listening to his music.

Of course, it is easy to break a license, but it is not an upright way to live - breaking agreements. So this wave of trying to control people must stop. And I am speaking about moral control, about this weird belief that you can control people and attach licenses to them simply because you are a composer. If you are a good composer people will feel gratitude and can help you financially, but noone should be in power to take away people's freedom.

And if you don't see the moral dilemma which I described in previous posts, then there is nothing that I can say further.

As for your play with words GIVING and SHARING, it is a typical example of an oversimplified analogy between material objects and files.
Sharing is not giving only if we are speaking about material objects. You shared a cd so now we have it but you don't because you gave it to us. In the world of files you do not share, you give away identical copies. In the world of computers sharing is actually giving.

Sam_Zen: I was not talking about download limitations at all. It is very sad that my action is so deeply misunderstood - maybe my English is very bad?

To all: Maybe I am the only one here who saw the license as an unacceptable behaviour. Maybe everyone else believe this is the way to go. Maybe it should even appear in the forum rules - you are not allowed to release music without attaching a license which would restrict with how many friends people can share your music and what they cannot do any more in their lives once they downloaded your music.

But to me this trend is disastrous. For the last 20-30 years copyright and proprietary thinking crawled into art. Now art is not about touching upon people's souls, it's not about a path which one chooses in life, it's a tool to get money and a tool to rise above everyone else because you are the "creator".

The license which we were presented with was an act of rising above. I am the composer, so you should all bow to me in respect.

I am a composer myself but I think such an attitude is junk. I release a lot of material and it is very good. I know this because I get the satisfaction from working on it and because a significant amount of people tells me so. Yet I do not have any power over the amount of people one must share - and not physical control, which Tassel of Blue also doesn't have, but most importantly no moral control.

So when you download my music you can be calm - you do not "owe" me anything at all. If you like the music and want to thank me, there are many ways to do it. But I do not compose music so that people will be obliged to me. And I believe this is a healthy way to look at things.

And when people are not obliged to me, the music I release needs no licenses attached to it.

uncloned · May 16, 2009, 15:17:23

Quote from: "Louigi Verona"
QuoteAs for Louigi, sounds like you just hate rules.

To all: Maybe I am the only one here who saw the license as an unacceptable behaviour.

LV - do you sit in judgment of us here at Modplug? I find that as ridiculous as an unenforceable license.

But to me this trend is disastrous. For the last 20-30 years copyright and proprietary thinking crawled into art.

Please note the date of publication on the bottom of the graphic.

Harbinger · May 16, 2009, 17:43:56

Thanks uncloned for that (assuming it's real :wink: ). Your patient history lesson is far calmer than the response i was going to give.

Louigi: End this discussion now. You made your point in the first page of this thread, i made my point, and i've tried twice now to end your hijacking of this thread. What should have been a positive experience for a new artist has now pretty much stopped any chance of her posting here again.

Congratulations. I'm sure everyone is proud of you for standing up for yourself...

uncloned · May 16, 2009, 20:29:54

Quote from: "Harbinger"Thanks uncloned for that (assuming it's real :wink: ). Your patient history lesson is far calmer than the response i was going to give.

http://www.bestactever.com/2009/04/26/the-long-war-music-piracy-in-1897-nytimes/

psishock · May 16, 2009, 21:50:37

Alright, i've finally able to find enough time to listen to the whole album together. It has been very well made, i cannot pick my favorite, i could find interesting parts on every piece. The bassline and that filtered lead in Existential Fractal is amazing, i like the haunting design in Compulsion and Every1. It is a good thing, that every song is variable enough, fun to listen and differs from each other.

About the other arguing, i think that peaceful conversation should be always welcome in every topic, but impulsive, aggressive responses simply kills the moral of the community (i'm not affected, i can overcome everything, but still can feel the tension in the air). We aren't on a trial here, but with friends, a less firm and more loosed approach should be more welcome. We are also grown up people, there is more that a few simple ways to react to a comment that isn't compatible with our way of thinking, without verbally hurting each other (even if lightly). Respect is a good thing, lets make the bond between us more stronger, rather than kicking or weakening everything up.

Harbinger and especially Tassel of Blue, guys, please definitely don't stop posting new stuff. That would be a pure nonsense, if you would decide to act like that, because of what happened in some of the people's post. I am looking forward to see your progressions in time, it would be a shame if you guys would hold your compositions just to yourselfs. I can accept your license as long as i'm not restricted to simply listen, and how much time can i listen to the compositions. Who cannot accept the license, shouldnt waste the time with the post. Things will go much smoothly this way. Everybody has a right to choose his/her own way, i think it is natural that we can respect (at least) this much in each other, putting any personal ideas aside.

Sam_Zen · May 17, 2009, 01:05:13

Thanks LV, a well-formulated statement.

2 Harbinger : Positive experience ? End this discussion now ? Hijacking this thread ?
You're the one who introduced aggressively off-topic paranoia elements in the first place.

Never mind. I just get fed up with wastes of time like this..

Saga Musix · May 17, 2009, 11:37:40

Nice album so far. listening to track 3 now. And yes, you have done a lot wrong in this thread, sorry. Starting with the strange license which could have been expressed in a way more friendly way, to the "Security through obscurity" approach with renaming the .zip file to .album. Judging the content by the file extension is a thing that's mostly spread in the windows world, however, linux systems for example rather examine the first few bytes of each file and determine what kind of file it is that way.