Side-chaining possible?

seventhson · January 11, 2009, 17:36:26

I know what you mean, i had been thinking about similar techniques as well in the past, but decided it was too complicated for what i needed.
(i like to keep things as simple as possible)
EQ is still the best way to give each sound a certain frequency range so it fits better in the mix.
For example: a hihat doesn't need any low frequencies so why not just filter out all the lowend.
The same principle is valid for all other elements as well.
I like to use sidechain more as an effect to give certain parts that pumping feeling or to give basslines just a little more room when combined with the kickdrum. (after carefull equalizing offcourse)

älskling · January 11, 2009, 18:26:08

Quote from: "psishock"i could only a few VST plugin on the net that could help me with this, and most of them costs around 400+ euro, so i've standed down from that idea.

I think Elevayta Spaceboy is pretty good and it's less than 25€. Now if only MPT would support plugin delay compensation...

And LPChip, panning is all good but when bass frequencies clash it's not an option (not a good one anyway).

LPChip · January 11, 2009, 19:45:27

The idea of panning is to make the brain seperate the sounds and thereby making them more clear.

Saga Musix · January 11, 2009, 20:12:08

This is not only about the brain. And no, putting the bass left and the bass drum right is NOT a good idea!

LPChip · January 11, 2009, 20:51:08

Not 100% but even if you do it, say 35% on left and right, it'll work. Basically that means that on one channel the basedrum is 35% stronger than the bass and visa versa on the other channel. Thats usually enough, although it usually doesn't hurt to have a bit more extreme panning situations.

I'm learning about panning atm because thats one of my weak spots, and this discovery made alot of difference to me and my music.

Sam_Zen · January 11, 2009, 21:02:39

In a classic production lotsa instruments and voices claim the center position, like the basedrum, bass guitar, some singer or solo instrument.
They all work with their elbows to get in the front of all and this leads to fuzzy sounds if the sound spectra are in the same area.
LPChip mentions a nice workaround for this, setting things just a bit off-center, left or right.

Saga Musix · January 11, 2009, 22:02:27

a bassdrum that's not in the center is so _wrong_, just like a bass.

Sam_Zen · January 12, 2009, 00:45:49

well, I could challenge you with a piece where the bassdrum is at -53% and the bass at 53%.
What's wrong about that ? A bit of tunnelvision here, I guess.

seventhson · January 12, 2009, 03:28:32

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"well, I could challenge you with a piece where the bassdrum is at -53% and the bass at 53%.
What's wrong about that ? A bit of tunnelvision here, I guess.

You could call it tunnelvision or you could look at it from a more practical point of view.

Here's someone who said it better then i could say:

Re: Sub/Sine bass...
Any elements containing significant amounts of bass and subbass frequencies should usually be kept panned to the center, for several reasons. Bass frequencies are usually the loudest part of a mix, and if they are panned to one side, then that channel will be significantly louder than the other channel, reducing the net loudness of the mix. Furthermore, when playing back on speakers, it is difficult or impossible to localize bass frequencies, so the panning will probably not be noticed. (And, in fact, if the speaker system has a subwoofer, then the panning will simply disappear.) On the other hand, when playing back on headphones, the panning will be noticed, and it will sound extremely unnatural, because we are not used to hearing that kind of directional information in low frequencies.

As for using mono vs. stereo sources, having a kick or a bassline in stereo is not as bad as having it panned, but it can also cause problems; mainly with phase cancellation when converting to mono (or when playing through a subwoofer, which is technically speaking a special case of converting to mono). Bass frequencies are more vulnerable than other frequencies to phase cancellation, so things that would sound OK in other ranges can sound really crummy in the bass range. If you can get a stereo kick or bass sound that does not have any phase cancellation when converted the mono, then there is no problem with having it in stereo (to my knowledge).

But basically, you probably want your kick and bass mono and panned dead center. That said, most of your stereo kicks and bass patches are probably not actually stereo. A stereo audio signal is, for all purposes, equivalent to mono if the left and right channels contain exactly the same information. Many so-called "stereo" audio signals are like this. I suspect that this is the case with a lot of your kick and bass sounds.

You can tell if a stereo signal actually has any stereo information in it by separating the right and left channels into separate channels, inverting the phase of the right channel, and mixing them back together. If you get silence, then it is a mono signal. If you get any sound, then there is stereo information.

Hope that helps.

http://www.idmforums.com/showthread.php?t=24600

Sam_Zen · January 12, 2009, 12:04:00

Well, with the risk of getting into a rather fruitless, because biased, debate, I'm not convinced here. These arguments are more coming from theoretical than a practical view.
I'll exclude the existence of a subwoofer here, it's just an artifact created by the industry.
It's also based on the wrong conception that the human ear is not able to distinguish direction from a low-freq. sound. I have a record by Tonto's Expanding Head band where a very low sound is bouncing from left to right. No problem.
And, again, this was about subtle differences in panning, not like : 'if not center, then all the way to the side'.

Saga Musix · January 12, 2009, 13:09:51

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"Well, with the risk of getting into a rather fruitless, because biased, debate, I'm not convinced here. These arguments are more coming from theoretical than a practical view.

I wouldn't say that. I tried it in the past, and still, centered bass frequencies are the most pleasing result, especially on headphones. Bass drums or bass samples that are on a "surround" channel (S91) are together with vocals on surround channels the most annoying thing you could find in all panning mistakes.

LPChip · January 12, 2009, 15:19:57

I do understand why people want the bass and basedrum in the dead center. Its part of certain music standards, and everyone knows that people dislike to break standards.

Its also true that in classical music it goes entirelly different so its not just that.

But I just wanted to point out that panning can solve the issue here, not if its a good one (although I still insist that its a good one).

To get back on side-chain compressing. It can be done in OpenMPT using a normal compressor or limiter. Or atleast simulate the idea.

The only thing that you must keep in mind, is that the compressor must come last in your chain. Yes, I know that's not what you want to do, because usually the compressor can undo your EQ just like that, but thats the only way for this to work.

The idea is that you use an FX slot with a high number. Say FX10 and put the sources below it. Say FX1->FX2 and FX5->FX6->FX7. (2 sounds)

We want to side-compress them so that when they both sound one will be louder and thus muting the other to a certain degree.

Route both FX2's output and FX7's output to the compressor/limiter on FX10.

Now FX10 will have 2 input signals. In order to make it do its magic, make sure that one of the two signals is extremelly loud. The compressor should be set to limit the signal to the maximum. (or use a limiter) Now: if the normal signal plays its limited to the maximum. If the other plays its reduced to the maximum. If they both play both are push down in volume pretty much. The louder one gets heard while the softer one gets pushed to a much lower volume.

Saga Musix · January 12, 2009, 15:40:00

going OT again, I wouldn't say it's different in classical music - you normally have a very strict panning setup there as well, just because of the way an orchestra is arranged. Also, on a real drumset, the bass drum is in the middle , hence the centered bass drum in music.

älskling · January 12, 2009, 16:19:35

Quote from: "LPChip"To get back on side-chain compressing. It can be done in OpenMPT using a normal compressor or limiter. Or at least simulate the idea.

The idea with side-chaining is that one signal is completely unaffected, so it's not the same or simulating the idea. It's just another way to achieve an over-compressed pumping sound.

älskling · January 12, 2009, 16:29:38

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"I'll exclude the existence of a subwoofer here, it's just an artifact created by the industry.

So is stereo or surround.

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"It's also based on the wrong conception that the human ear is not able to distinguish direction from a low-freq. sound.

It's not a wrong conception, it's bas(s)ic physics. Of course you can pan bass whichever way you like, but it's not wrong because of some standard, it's wrong because it complicates things.