Short rhythm demonstration for a beginner?

[Anonymous]

Is there anyone out there who's able to create a short demo track which demonstrates the difference between shuffle and swing?

I've read about it, but I don't seem to understand the difference. The worst thing is that I have probably used both in my composing without knowing what's what.

So, if anyone could create a short demo track (XM, IT, MOD, what ever!) which I could explore in MODplug Tracker, I'd be really glad!

[Sam_Zen]

why bother about some category ? You make what you make .

[apple-joe]

Sure - but there -are- differences, and sometimes it's interesting analyzing them.

[rewbs]

I don't know what the difference is and I'd also be interested in hearing the answer.

[iFX]

literary the difference is pretty obvious shuffle meens push and swing means swing!

but I think there is no difference as refered from this link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swung_note

I think the only difference my be in the use of the words, I think that shuffle is more used in our technical domain and swing rather more in the live musicians situation I meen musicians und each other probably rather reffer to swing while the studio musician rather to shuffle. But big questionmark here as I absolutely can tell for sure if there is a real difference or not!

Trying...

Another option to find out would be to find two instruments the one that provides a swing parameter and the other a shuffe, then make the same rhythm with both machines, swith the shuffle and swing parameters and listen, I think the result will be probably the same.

[botb]

shuffle is a way of composing and swing is a way of playing..
at least.. I think.. remember vaguely how two classmates
discussed it a few years ago.. but then again, I think..

[apple-joe]

No, I am quite sure there is a difference. I've read about it several times, but
didn't understand quite what the theory behind swing meant. I get shuffle now. Finally.

[cdnalsi]

Well, there's a big difference. And I'm talking about the style of play here.
Grab this to see what I mean:

http://www.cdn2.ro/shuffle_swing.it

The first two patterns are shuffle, the last two, swing.

edit: Now of course they both have the "swing" feel, as opposed to the "straight" feel, but they are played differently. And now that I've read the Wikipedia answer, I must say that they are wrong! Swing and shuffle are not the same thing. Swing is the genre, the feel of the notes, and the playing. Shuffle is completely different as you can here on the little .it I've put above. By "shuffle-ing" the notes you actually "swing" the notes, but that's another term misused term.

Cheers to everybody! Long time no see!!

[apple-joe]

YES! Finally a man of action.

I really look forward to listening to the file. I might return with additional questions soon.

[apple-joe]

I listened to your demo. Very interesting. Your shuffle rhythm matched my idea of what it is. The swing was a little different, on the other hand.

I've got a couple of files myself. I zipped them and uploaded them a minute ago. One called "modes", which is a module I made a few days ago. How would you describe the rhythm towards the end? The overall is standard 4/4 - un-altered - yet I added an effect towards the end. How would you describe the rhythm; swing?

Then it's a file I created right now after listening to yours. I just called it "rhythms", and it's got three parts. It starts out in stragight 4/4. Then shuffle. Then what would you call the ending? I have always thought of that style as swing. How about you? I thought this was what you would do when demonstrating swing.

Please comment!

Oh, and here are the links:

http://apple-joe.tripod.com/modes.zip
http://apple-joe.tripod.com/rhythms.zip

Try clicking the links. If they don't work, tr; right-click the link and choose 'Save as...'

[rewbs]

Hello cdnalsi. Thanks for the track - the education is much appreciated.
Would it be fair to say the bass of the first part alone illustrates shuffle, and the cymbals of the second part illustrate swing?

[cdnalsi]

@apple-joe:
This file is hosted by Tripod, a Lycos?Network Site, and is not available for download. Please check out Tripod's Help system for more information about Remote Loading and our Remote Loading policy.

@rewbs:
Actually no. All the instruments have a big part in creating the swing and shuffle rhythm. If you try to do the swing bass on the shuffle drums, it would be nothing - from a natural point of view. And the same way again if you switch any of the components. The conclusion is that every instrument is vital. Take a concert of a band. First piece - a swing. The drummer plays like I've done in the mod, the bassist same. Second track - a bossanova. The drummer changes from the "swing feel" to "straight feel".
The bassist makes a different groove. The third track - a shuffle. Again all the instruments make the changes accordingly to sound as if they are really playing swing, shuffle, or bossanova.

Cheers!

[Sam_Zen]

So, is this shuffle or swing ? Or none of them ?
Jumper Decision : MOD - ZIP

[Matt Hartman]

So, is this shuffle or swing ? Or none of them ?
Jumper Decision : MOD - ZIP

Definitely none of the above Sam. This is a straight 4/4 or 4/8.

Try to think of swing as a little funky, instead of a straight on beat with no "pocket" or "bounce"

[Matt Hartman]

@apple-joe:
This file is hosted by Tripod, a Lycos?Network Site, and is not available for download. Please check out Tripod's Help system for more information about Remote Loading and our Remote Loading policy.

@rewbs:
Actually no. All the instruments have a big part in creating the swing and shuffle rhythm. If you try to do the swing bass on the shuffle drums, it would be nothing - from a natural point of view. And the same way again if you switch any of the components. The conclusion is that every instrument is vital. Take a concert of a band. First piece - a swing. The drummer plays like I've done in the mod, the bassist same. Second track - a bossanova. The drummer changes from the "swing feel" to "straight feel".
The bassist makes a different groove. The third track - a shuffle. Again all the instruments make the changes accordingly to sound as if they are really playing swing, shuffle, or bossanova.

Cheers!

cdnalsi-Long time no hear. Nifty little track BTW...

I have to disagree with you about certain rhythms being defined by the instrumentation within.

I think what happens with this association is that we subconsciously pair certain instruments with certain genres, beats, rhythms, etc.  Let's take Jazz for instance. More or less, Jazz brought the swing movement/genre to life. The swing meter of course existed way before this, if we can even label a date on it at all. Jazz' really centralized it's sound off of the swing meter, using various instruments to help define the genre.

Now, what instruments come to mind when we think of Jazz? Perhaps, a ride cymbal, an upright bass, a piano, a trumpet and saxophone? These were some of the instruments that helped to innovate swing into what it is today. Let's not forget in general that 'funk' uses the same swing meter.

However, regardless of what particular instruments are being used, a swing is a swing because a swing is just another variation on meter. And there are literally hundreds if not thousands of these variations in all combinations and offshoots. It's virtually endless.

My point is, the swing meter was "alive" before the swing genre was captured and spotlighted. So therefore, instrumentation is not bound to any given meter. Perhaps genre, yet these days, genres are expanding past their original instrumentation that helped shape those genres.

In your sample, you provided a shuffle that is more rock/blues based. Yet, shuffles are also used in Country, R&B, Folk, Gospel and any other genre yet to be brought into awareness.

It's all about innovation and experimentation really.