Instrument layer, really impossible ?

[Paul Legovitch]

For me, musical inspiration often comes with playing new instruments. My favorite part of creating a module is tweaking samples and instruments and play them with a midi keyboard. I read this feature request yesterday and I thought instrument layers was a very good idea to get some new feelings.

I managed to play 2 instruments layered with 2 MPT openned simultaneously, with  MidiYoke (virtual midi interface) and MidiPiano : MidiPiano lets me play notes with the keyboard (or with the mouse, or with a midi keyboard) and send them via MidiYoke to the 2 MPT sessions.
I'm not a very good pianist but anyway I recorded some chords live with a synth bell (with no velocity) layered with a saxophone (with velocity). It looks like that :
i
Hear the result : layer_bell_saxo.ogg

It's a really great feeling to be able to play like that and could lead to fresh composing ideas.
Sadly, the answer for this request was clear (impossible), that's why i'm not answering in the thread. I want to know though if it could be made possible not for pattern writing, but for instrument playing (just like there is the keyboard split option which is already great btw).

EDIT : (S=O) [REQ] template mode (from Impulse Tracker)

Just for the sake of dreaming I want to state that Modplug with a layer envelope in the instrument tab would be the best tracker of all time. Imagine an option to add instrument B, C and D and control the result with a vector synthesis envelope and a new effect ?xy (x for the A-B axis, y for the C-D axis). Of course the instrument itself could be used without its layers for another instrument.  

[LPChip]

I personally use Xlutop Chainer to accomplish this, although that'll mean I can't use the build-in sample playback function from OpenMPT.

Xlutop allows me to play more than one VSTi at the same time. I can use plugins like sfz to play wave data at the same time or SF2's or basically any VSTi.

It works well. Perhaps thats a nice alternative?

[Paul Legovitch]

Thanks for the tip !

The only problem is when it comes to VST, it stands for Vaderetro Satanas Technology for me and my old computer. I don't know how can anyone put up with the latency that they induce, it's like a beautiful ferrari without gas. Plus they come in big dlls, not embedded in the module !

Of course, I'm sure that if I had the money to buy those VSTs (I know, there are free ones) and a good computer that can handle them, I would be happy with the result but my regret is that the researsh for a new sample-based tracker instrument format has practically ended with the integration of VST instruments.

Modplug is free, cpu friendly, and allows me to handle in depth all parameters for hundreds of instruments with no problem at all. Also I can obtain incredibly good instruments that are below 1Ko with IT instruments. Now Imagine playing the same instrument four times with detune settings, or four instruments evolving in time according to a vector envelope, so much possibilities. All of this can be achieved (painfully) with four tracks so technically it must be possible I guess.
Here's how I would see the layer section in the instrument tab :



This way you could have incredible sounds with only one little waveform and one instrument (no VST needed here !). That would be a great new format ! In my dreams ...

[LPChip]

I don't think a feature like this will ever be made.

I think it'll happen sooner that you get a group instrument that, once played, plays other instruments by choice at the same time.

Say: You play group instrument 1 (which set to instrument 1,2,4) it will play these instruments at the same time as if you entered: C-4 01|C-4 02|C-4 04 in the pattern editor.

[machinesmith]

Okay I give in, I thought that if I used the built in chord editor in OMPT I could give you an example (ie mapped one key playback of multiple samples instruments) it didnt work however and even if it did it would've been severely limited.

Also Paul man, while I think your idea is cool for a real time environment (ie played live) part of it is still pretty doable in a lesser way (ie playing 2 or more instruments and/or samples without killing your fingers). Sadly, the only way I know to do this is within IT (part of the reason Im writing this is because Im hoping the devs/OMPT pros can help me out here if they have the time)

Anyhoo to turn on "caveman chord mode" In IT:
I would first play the notes I want (ie in multiple channels etc), highlight it, copy it (ALT+C) and then switch to template mode (ALT+I). Now when I press any key the whole template is lifted , and one key allows many samples to play at once!

(Super Useless info: I also tried mapping keys to one instrument, because in some cases I like mapping 2 or more samples/instruments to a new one (like a drum kit for example..makes it easy for me to just press c5, d5, e5, f5...instead of the going through the whole process of changing instrument nos , then pressing the key, then changing it again etc etc) in this case it was useless though)  

The other way I do "layering" of samples is oldskool Amiga Style, I literally merge them! (Using a wav editor etc) So using my process on your example, you'd tweak both samples till you were content and then merge those buggers! And so the unpatented Machinesmith Sampling technique would lead to Saxy_Bells.wav - not realtime for sure, but no VST evilry here!

On another note I found this: http://www.renoise.com/indepth/tutorials/advanced-midi-routing-for-renoise/ Seems very similar to what you're doing - also I know that merging samples/instruments into 1 is possible via renoise...just that it spells death for my PC.

I love that 2nd pic btw - at first I thought you had a special Paul Legovitch edition of OMPT!

(btw devs why is there only 3 octaves in the chord editor...also how do I play the range from c-0 to b-0? Is it even playable? If not why is even there? Is a tomato a fruit? how many pepsi's make 5?? ANSWER, quick, QUICKER!! NAOOO!! ("now" said Arnold Schwarzenneger style)

[Saga Musix]

C-0 to B-0? Simply set the octave offset from 4 to 0, works perfectly for me.

[Paul Legovitch]

Sadly, the only way I know to do this is within IT (part of the reason Im writing this is because Im hoping the devs/OMPT pros can help me out here if they have the time)

Thanks for this ! I didn't manage to make IT works properly in XP (too slow, etc...) but I tried it with Schism and it works fine (except Schism is not my cup of tea). I didn't find any request for it in the forum, but I think It's a great feature, so I'll ask for it, if that's ok.
EDIT : (S=O) [REQ] template mode (from Impulse Tracker)

The other way I do "layering" of samples is oldskool Amiga Style, I literally merge them! (Using a wav editor etc)

:lol: Oldskool Amiga guy here too, I began with Audio Sculpture and ProTracker. Their internal sample editor could manage both sample merging and chord sample creation ! That was really great when we were limited to 4 tracks but now, I would prefer not to do that because I'm using mostly single waveforms looped (<1Ko) for my intruments (and they sound very good I can assure you).

On another note I found this: http://www.renoise.com/indepth/tutorials/advanced-midi-routing-for-renoise/ Seems very similar to what you're doing - also I know that merging samples/instruments into 1 is possible via renoise...just that it spells death for my PC.

:twisted: Haha, my PC doesn't like Renoise very much either !
This looks exactly like what I'm doing. After reading this I made a quick search in the Renoise forums and found a really beautifull vision of what could be a great new instrument format : pattern-instruments !

Code Select Expand

embed sub-patterns in special instruments :
* Pitch-able, loops could be created that would act as arpeggios
* As an option, these arpeggios, like in most synths, could progress through whatever chords are being played at the time.
* When the pitch of these loops change, the tempo stays the same
* Instruments could now layer samples
(...)
* Sub-patterns could either loop or act as one-shot instruments... and they'd all be affected by instrument envelopes, LFOs, and filters He said it, that's the tracker-like way to do things ! A beautiful idea imho.
Actually, I found something similar here too, another great vision of a macro tab : Macro Patterns.
Lovely ideas !

I love that 2nd pic btw - at first I thought you had a special Paul Legovitch edition of OMPT!

I still have to invent the software that would convert images into code (img2c.exe).

[Saga Musix]

This looks exactly like what I'm doing. After reading this I made a quick search in the Renoise forums and found a really beautifull vision of what could be a great new instrument format :

I think such a request has also been made for OpenMPT:
http://forum.openmpt.org/index.php?topic=3139.0

[Paul Legovitch]

Yes, we quoted the same request :  Macro Patterns.
But I opened a request for the IT template mode because, now that I tried it thanks to machinesmith, I think it would be a great (and more feasible) feature.