[Recap] Music dept - "The use of 'odd' rhythms"

LPChip · February 16, 2006, 12:01:44

Quote from: "apple-joe"Sam Zen - you seem to have a good understanding of music. You don't happen to have a blues shuffle mod laying around, do you? It'd surely be an interesting listen.

I've heard a song called "Pelforth Blues" which shows the different aspects of a blues.

the song was made in 1991 as a mod by moby, and a link: http://www.kinken.se/mod/pelforth_blues.zip

apple-joe · February 16, 2006, 12:21:15

Great, thank you. I'm downloading.

EDIT: Definately one of the most inspirational mods I've listened to. This is exactly what I mean. I am about to see the difference between shuffle and swing. Swing is more of a ... the groove really swings without limits. The shuffle is more like regular rhythm but with a delayed feel. Both may be in 12/8, but it seems like the difference is where the accent on the drums are placed.

In the example you provided the tempo of the first half is 6. The idea of the drums is; place a bass drum somewhere, then place a snare six rows down. Then, to get the shuffle feel, the composer has added an accented bass drum TWO rows before the snare. If you add the bass drum THREE rows before the snare, it will not sound as... delayed. It'll feel more stressed, but in the context - concerning the division of notes - it'll swing.

Bottom line is, at least as it appears to me; think in terms of 2 or 4 etc., and you get shuffle. Think in terms of 3, 6 etc and you get swing. Now I'm speaking about the subdivision, because I know that in both cases the piece is based on a main idea of 6 rows.

Heck, I should really learn the correct terminology. Well, at least I'm about to see the practical/actual difference.

Sam_Zen · February 17, 2006, 01:23:46

2 LPChip
Indeed a very nice piece. I maybe wrong, but this Moby was already a big name in the times of FastTracker II.

2 apple-joe
I don't mind so much about correct terminology, but I feel you have picked the point about subdivisions
And you're right of course about any other dividing-unit besides 2-powers. Every resolution has its own characteristics, because of unique moments in time of one row.
Basic 'controversy' here is I think : Do you declare 12 to be 3 times 4, or 4 times 3 ?

apple-joe · February 17, 2006, 10:48:09

I listened to a song this morning, the artist was Stevie Ray Vaughan.

It was most likely 12/8, and I would count this song 123-223-323-423 - or perhaps 123456223456. Counting 1234 did not work very well.

DavidN · February 17, 2006, 13:23:22

Dream Theater are rather good at odd rhythms, often using 7/4, 11/4 and 13/4 (and alternating between two or more during the same song). It's most noticeable in the 42-minute Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

apple-joe · February 21, 2006, 14:57:15

Yes, but does any of you got more mods in which different time signatures appear?

I still seem to miss it sometimes. I do it correctly what concerns the general concept. But I when about to create a 6/8 example, it ends up being 3/4, or if I aim for 7/8, the outcome will be 7/4. So the problems are not very serious, but it's still interesting to see examples. And I still have a 'thing' for 12/8.

Sam_Zen · February 22, 2006, 01:23:54

Quote from: "apple-joe"It was most likely 12/8, and I would count this song 123-223-323-423 - or perhaps 123456223456. Counting 1234 did not work very well.

123-223-323-423 would mean a division of 12 steps into 4 times 3. 123456223456 would mean a division of 2 times 6 steps.

I don't work with things like '/4' or '/8', so I don't care about the difference, still talking about repeated cycles of elements. Within that cycle, it's a matter of division into rhythmic 'accents' (emphasis) that produces the drive.
So in Indian tabla playing, a common way of dividing a cycle of 11 steps is : 3 + 3 + 3 + 2.
As with classic funk of 1234 (or 12345678, or even 1 - 16), the emphasis lies on the 'One'. The downbeat.
For the tabla in this case of 11 it would mean the first 'One' of the first '3' in the count.
(Sorry if I seem to make this complicated, but after all, this is a matter of numbers, divisions, denominators, etc.)

You ask for more examples. I think I already gave some, but ok, here's another one : ReadMe.
At the end the rhythm will change from 4 to 6 (or 8 to 12, whatever) using the common cycle point for a different division. The difference of 12 being 3 x 4 or 4 x 3. (So the 'One' is still going on)

Quote from: "Wong"Dream Theater are rather good at odd rhythms, often using 7/4, 11/4 and 13/4

Didn't know on forehand about this band, but I guessed it to be a metal band, and it appeared to be right after checking.
This genre uses those rhythms a lot. Indeed alternating, so in a sequential way. But it can also be done simultaneously.
In raga-music it is quite often, that the sitar-player runs at 7, while the tabla-player runs at 11, so they both know that their common 'One' point lies at the point of 77, so that's the moment to stop playing when finishing the song.

apple-joe · February 22, 2006, 13:48:31

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"123-223-323-423 would mean a division of 12 steps into 4 times 3. 123456223456 would mean a division of 2 times 6 steps.

I don't work with things like '/4' or '/8', so I don't care about the difference, still talking about repeated cycles of elements. Within that cycle, it's a matter of division into rhythmic 'accents' (emphasis) that produces the drive.
So in Indian tabla playing, a common way of dividing a cycle of 11 steps is : 3 + 3 + 3 + 2.
As with classic funk of 1234 (or 12345678, or even 1 - 16), the emphasis lies on the 'One'. The downbeat.
For the tabla in this case of 11 it would mean the first 'One' of the first '3' in the count.
(Sorry if I seem to make this complicated, but after all, this is a matter of numbers, divisions, denominators, etc.)

You ask for more examples. I think I already gave some, but ok, here's another one : ReadMe.
At the end the rhythm will change from 4 to 6 (or 8 to 12, whatever) using the common cycle point for a different division. The difference of 12 being 3 x 4 or 4 x 3. (So the 'One' is still going on)

It did indeed sound a little complicated at first read, but after slowing down and re-reading it makes perfectly sense. Interesting approach you have there, disregarding the /4 or /8 specification. I'm gonna listen to the most recent example very soon.

EDIT: I just tried to create an example based on your idea about Indian 'tabla'. Check the example accessible through the link:

http://apple-joe.tripod.com/In11.it

- Seems like you have to right-click the link and choose 'Save target as...' . Make sure you save the file as .IT and not .HTM. If you do save it as .HTM, you must rename it later and hope it will work.

EDIT II: I've just listened to two of your examples SamZen, and your style is very different/alternative, but at the same time very enjoyable. I'm able to dream myself away while listening. There's also 'something' to your music which makes me think/wonder more.

Sam_Zen · February 23, 2006, 01:19:29

2 apple-joe
Just checked 'In11' and indeed you have the right patternlength of 88, being a multiple of 11.
Listening to the tonal lines in it, with its 'repeating accents', it goes : 3 x 6 and 1 x 4. According to this, you have put the second crash cymbal on a somewhat peculiar position, 4 steps before the next accent.
To illustrate my point, I have shifted this cymbal 4 rows ahead, added an extra on the first of the 1 x 4 section, and speeded it up a bit : In11_2.it (edit: link removed)

I'm pleased to hear that you enjoy some of my work. Dream on I would say. If you're interested, you can find more of it at my Traxfree page.

EDIT : An example, of why I'm not going for /4 or /8 notations, is the fact, that, during playback, things just keep the same, even when changing the value of "rows/beat".

apple-joe · February 23, 2006, 08:30:58

Hm, I'm quite sure I intended it to be 3x3 + 1x2 as you talked about. I might have mixed it up at one point, however. On the other hand, it might just as well be a matter of interpretation. You say it's 3x6 + 1x4, it's the same as I thought, just with a doubled amount of notes obviously.

I'll listen to your edit in a few hours, as well as checking more of your songs.

EDIT: Ok, I think I see what happened. Regarding In11.it - we both understand it 'correct', but I considered it as 3x3 + 2x1 played two times, if you understand. On row 44, the sequence starts over again. While you probably thought of the entire pattern as a whole, as you said 3x6 + 4x1. It's obviously a matter of where you think the cycle repeats. Ok, time to listen to tracks from TraxFree.

Sam_Zen · February 24, 2006, 00:24:48

Quote from: "apple-joe"it's the same as I thought, just with a doubled amount of notes obviously.

Yep. This doubling I call the 'resolution' qua number of steps. Because the timing points for notes can be more precisely, being e.g. halfway the beat, just before or just after it.

Quote from: ""we both understand it 'correct', but I considered it as 3x3 + 2x1 played two times, if you understand. On row 44, the sequence starts over again. While you probably thought of the entire pattern as a whole

You're right. I presumed the pattern as being the cycle element. Because, while listening to the sequence of the notes, they gave me the impression of 3 'units' of six consecutive notes, plus 1 with four, while tapping along.
But in your case, 44 is the right position, so my correction was wrong.