I know that this is a pretty noobish question, but I am trying to make a MMX cover of Pokemon DPPt`s Gym Leader theme, but I cant really seem to get everything to work. So far, I have gotten all the samples I need and even a working MIDI, but I still cant do anything after that.
Also, how can a song be able to actually go through the SNES hardware? I was thinking of porting my songs to hacks like SMW, but I cant really seem to find a tutorial on how to make genuine SNES music, so that`s why I am asking. XD
Quotebut I still cant do anything after that.
Maybe it's time to go through the beginner tutorial (https://wiki.openmpt.org/Tutorial:_Getting_Started) then.
Once you have passed that, feel free to ask specific questions. "I don't know what do it" is not a specific question.
QuoteAlso, how can a song be able to actually go through the SNES hardware?
You can create SPC files from modules using SNESMOD (http://snes.mukunda.com/).
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 04, 2016, 18:36:02
Quotebut I still cant do anything after that.
Maybe it's time to go through the beginner tutorial (https://wiki.openmpt.org/Tutorial:_Getting_Started) then.
Once you have passed that, feel free to ask specific questions. "I don't know what do it" is not a specific question.
QuoteAlso, how can a song be able to actually go through the SNES hardware?
You can create SPC files from modules using SNESMOD (http://snes.mukunda.com/).
Well, I am planning on actually making my SNES styled music go through the hardware for hacks, but I cant really seem to find any tutorials that show how to do that, nor have I found how to do it in the OpenMPT tutorial. And yes, I have already downloaded SNESMOD. I might try and see if I can look at both tutorials on how to do it, but I dont really know if that will be enough, especially when I cant seem to find most of what to do on the SNESMOD tutorial on the OpenMPT tutorial. Sorry for bothering you, btw. XD
QuoteWell, I am planning on actually making my SNES styled music go through the hardware for hacks
I cannot quite imagine what you could mean by this apart from creating an SPC file to play it right on the SNES, so I cannot help you here. OpenMPT is not an SNES-specific tool so there is no functionality here to help you to this done for you. OpenMPT can only help you with writing the actual piece of music, but adhering to the SNES limitations (e.g. maximum sample lengths, sample rate limits and the maximum of 8 channels) is up to you.
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 04, 2016, 19:35:38
QuoteWell, I am planning on actually making my SNES styled music go through the hardware for hacks
I cannot quite imagine what you could mean by this apart from creating an SPC file to play it right on the SNES, so I cannot help you here. OpenMPT is not an SNES-specific tool so there is no functionality here to help you to this done for you. OpenMPT can only help you with writing the actual piece of music, but adhering to the SNES limitations (e.g. maximum sample lengths, sample rate limits and the maximum of 8 channels) is up to you.
Yeah, I think that I might try SNESGSS then, but the samples I got didnt really seem to work in there, so I might try and find working samples for it and look at a tutorial for that program instead. Thanks for helping me, though!
If you wanna go deep then learning "MML" is the most accurate way to make SNES music. While SNESGSS is by no means a poor tracker it is incomplete AFAIK. IIRC no main volume adjustments or any options for the echo buffer, at the time when I used it [my] knowledge of the SNES weren't so hot and really wanted that echo buffer so decided against it. Whether your issues are trivial is beyond me but I'm assuming your knowledge of tracking is enough to get started so here are a few SNES things to keep in mind.
1.Sample length must be aligned by 16. Sample loop point must also be aligned by 16. There is no end loop, that is the sample will be played to the very end..
Example: Sample Length 224, loop start 192. If neither of these can divide into 16 then they may not loop properly.
2. Sample playback cannot exceed 128khz. I forgot why that is but if you have a 32khz sample you cap out at 3 octaves above. The lower pitch is not limited but you begin losing accuracy (dsp uses Fixed Point numbers)
3. Samples are always compressed and stored into a BRR format in ARAM. 9/32 compression ratio. The smallest block of BRR is 16 samples which is why yours (as mentioned above) should adhere to 16 sample boundaries for predictable results (space-wise it's more efficient.)
*4. Maximum of 8 voices.
5. Instruments may either user ADSR or GAIN (custom envelopes.) It's good practice to always define an instrument envelope no matter how generic.
6. All samples must fit within 64kb of ARAM. By N-SPC specs 16kb is reserved for other things such as sequence data so chop that into 48kb max.
7. Each 16ms of delay by the echo buffer costs 2kb of ram. Max echo delay is 240 or 30kb. IIRC 2kb is automatically used if echo buffer is defined.
8. FIR filter only affects echo buffer output. 8-Taps.
9. Feedback is also an echo buffer attribute. values range from -128 -> 127.
10. Main Volume L, R and Echo Volume L, R also ranges from -128 -> 127. That is a negative volume will indeed inverse the waveform (Dolby Surround IIRC.)
That's the most I can come up with the top of my head. Obviously if I didn't use OpenMPT I wouldn't be here ;D but most of those should be enough to get you started. Fitting your samples into ARAM is probably the most difficult..... for me anyways since my echo buffer is typically around 128ms, so for the price of more "pleasant" reverb my samples often lack some clarity presented in official titles.
*Through echo buffer exploits it's been said you can achieve 32 channels. This is probably 16 "true" channels and those delayed to make 32 "effective" channels but doing so would require you to write your own sound engine in ASM which is probably not what you're looking for.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I use SNESMOD, link posted by Saga Musix. If we're using a MIDI you'd naturally import the song as such. Only issue is you end up with a bunch of extra channels so first and foremost you're gonna need to condense them into 8. Usually it'll fit (extremely song dependent, but in your case it should) as the extra channels are usually overflow and "echo." You can cut down on the work by opening and even editing the midi directly. Once you clean up & condense channels you will deal with the instruments. By default they all have envelopes and most of them are multi-sampled, therefore you're going to need to edit the note entries so that they're bound to one sample. Once the instruments are taken care of everything else should be straight forward.
QuoteFitting your samples into ARAM is probably the most difficult..... for me anyways since my echo buffer is typically around 128ms, so for the price of more "pleasant" reverb my samples often lack some clarity presented in official titles.
Or he might try to downsample the instruments that have low harmonics (Flutes come in mind), and make all the others either 16384Hz or 32768Hz (works best with drums).
Quote from: FreezeFlame(Alchemy) on June 07, 2016, 21:56:36
Or he might try to downsample the instruments that have low harmonics (Flutes come in mind), and make all the others either 16384Hz or 32768Hz (works best with drums).
The thing is I'm ASSUMING ultimate12 is using MMX samples which should be already compressed. A 128ms echo buffer is 16kb which could fit 4 14kb samples... delays above 192ms is pretty godly if you're trying to simulate a ice cave. But again the OP shouldn't have problems loading them into aram unless they're using over 10 different samples which is still doable.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 06, 2016, 04:41:54
If you wanna go deep then learning "MML" is the most accurate way to make SNES music. While SNESGSS is by no means a poor tracker it is incomplete AFAIK. IIRC no main volume adjustments or any options for the echo buffer, at the time when I used it [my] knowledge of the SNES weren't so hot and really wanted that echo buffer so decided against it. Whether your issues are trivial is beyond me but I'm assuming your knowledge of tracking is enough to get started so here are a few SNES things to keep in mind.
1.Sample length must be aligned by 16. Sample loop point must also be aligned by 16. There is no end loop, that is the sample will be played to the very end..
Example: Sample Length 224, loop start 192. If neither of these can divide into 16 then they may not loop properly.
2. Sample playback cannot exceed 128khz. I forgot why that is but if you have a 32khz sample you cap out at 3 octaves above. The lower pitch is not limited but you begin losing accuracy (dsp uses Fixed Point numbers)
3. Samples are always compressed and stored into a BRR format in ARAM. 9/32 compression ratio. The smallest block of BRR is 16 samples which is why yours (as mentioned above) should adhere to 16 sample boundaries for predictable results (space-wise it's more efficient.)
*4. Maximum of 8 voices.
5. Instruments may either user ADSR or GAIN (custom envelopes.) It's good practice to always define an instrument envelope no matter how generic.
6. All samples must fit within 64kb of ARAM. By N-SPC specs 16kb is reserved for other things such as sequence data so chop that into 48kb max.
7. Each 16ms of delay by the echo buffer costs 2kb of ram. Max echo delay is 240 or 30kb. IIRC 2kb is automatically used if echo buffer is defined.
8. FIR filter only affects echo buffer output. 8-Taps.
9. Feedback is also an echo buffer attribute. values range from -128 -> 127.
10. Main Volume L, R and Echo Volume L, R also ranges from -128 -> 127. That is a negative volume will indeed inverse the waveform (Dolby Surround IIRC.)
That's the most I can come up with the top of my head. Obviously if I didn't use OpenMPT I wouldn't be here ;D but most of those should be enough to get you started. Fitting your samples into ARAM is probably the most difficult..... for me anyways since my echo buffer is typically around 128ms, so for the price of more "pleasant" reverb my samples often lack some clarity presented in official titles.
*Through echo buffer exploits it's been said you can achieve 32 channels. This is probably 16 "true" channels and those delayed to make 32 "effective" channels but doing so would require you to write your own sound engine in ASM which is probably not what you're looking for.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I use SNESMOD, link posted by Saga Musix. If we're using a MIDI you'd naturally import the song as such. Only issue is you end up with a bunch of extra channels so first and foremost you're gonna need to condense them into 8. Usually it'll fit (extremely song dependent, but in your case it should) as the extra channels are usually overflow and "echo." You can cut down on the work by opening and even editing the midi directly. Once you clean up & condense channels you will deal with the instruments. By default they all have envelopes and most of them are multi-sampled, therefore you're going to need to edit the note entries so that they're bound to one sample. Once the instruments are taken care of everything else should be straight forward.
Yeah, sorry about not replying earlier, I JUST saw your post on my video. But yeah, the one thing that I hate about SNESGSS is that it has no echo or reverb, which might make songs not sound as great. I think I am gonna try and look at the OpenMPT tutorial, along with what you said here so I can see what I am doing wrong. Again, thanks so much for helping me guys! XD
EDIT: Also, one thing: I have been trying to set the configurations to what you said, but I am not really finding any tutorials who says on how to even find how to set them up. Is there a part on the OpenMPT that says where can you change these? Tbh, this was the one reason I didnt really like OpenMPT and had to give up after one week of trying to even start the actual song. XD
QuoteEDIT: Also, one thing: I have been trying to set the configurations to what you said, but I am not really finding any tutorials who says on how to even find how to set them up. Is there a part on the OpenMPT that says where can you change these?
Most of the mentioned things are purely informational and cannot be configured in OpenMPT.
The only things that you can directly influence from that list are:
1. The sample lengths and loop starts must be divisible by 16: You can edit samples in the sample editor (https://wiki.openmpt.org/Manual:_Samples#Sample_Display).
2. Samples with a high sampling rate should be resampled to something less than 32 KHz, which can also be achieved using the resampler tool from the sample editor.
4. Changing the number of pattern channels to 8 can be done through the Song Properties (https://wiki.openmpt.org/Manual:_Song_Properties).
5. Just be sure you are in instrument mode and enable some kind of volume envelope (https://wiki.openmpt.org/Manual:_Instruments#Envelope_Editor).
Everything else is just manually keeping track that you are staying within the limits of the system.
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 09, 2016, 13:32:29
Yeah, sorry about not replying earlier, I JUST saw your post on my video. But yeah, the one thing that I hate about SNESGSS is that it has no echo or reverb, which might make songs not sound as great. I think I am gonna try and look at the OpenMPT tutorial, along with what you said here so I can see what I am doing wrong. Again, thanks so much for helping me guys! XD
EDIT: Also, one thing: I have been trying to set the configurations to what you said, but I am not really finding any tutorials who says on how to even find how to set them up. Is there a part on the OpenMPT that says where can you change these? Tbh, this was the one reason I didnt really like OpenMPT and had to give up after one week of trying to even start the actual song. XD
OpenMPT by its nature is not a SNES Tracker. The most accurate way to do things is through MML (scripting language) and at smwcentral there are tools to ease into it. However at the time it was too difficult (not that I can read mml well) so we're gonna scratch that.
Generating an SPC is done by a program called "xm2snes" or "SNESMOD." xm2snes does not provide options for echo buffer so in that case it isn't really better than SNESGSS. SNESMOD does and it's in the link provided by SagaX, author by Mukunda. Get a hold of the program first which is most important. Once you do that it'll be smooth sailing. The Author put in a readme "snesmod_music" and it'll tell you how to setup stuff such as echo buffer.
This is a basic "starter pack" example: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=5A3B4F072C63425D!241&authkey=!AMtmoCFIUwqS8ls&ithint=folder%2cit
[I should not be redistributing the MIDI of someone else so forgive me.]
Contains 2 .it files. An .it that is derived from the midi and an original track (albeit old.) They both illustrate things slightly different because SNESMOD ALSO HAS PROBLEMS. It doesn't properly implement "KEY OFF" so you have to manually note cut/note fade or else you risk some noise which you will get from the Eterna Forest. The Waterworld file is an example of how to better emulate the key off which requires increasing the precision of the track.
With the files use SNESMOD (drag 'em to smconv) to make an SPC. There is a bug in that it creates a 74kb file, this should be 64/65kb instead. Opening them should let you see a little how to enable the echo buffer which is also on the readme. In OpenMPT there is a comments section, the semicolon is to help reader and is not part of the setup.
[[SNESMOD]]
EDL 9
EFB 80
EVOL 64 -64
EFIR 70 16 2 0 3 2 0 1
EON 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
______________
[[SNESMOD]]
Echo Delay Line. Multiply this number by 16 to find the ms of delay. 16x9 = 144 thus 144ms of delay. 32ms is more common with 48ms (EDL 3) being average.
Echo Feedback. The output loops in a feedback buffer continuously to simulate more echos. Feedback will cover up the audio without the FIR filter at higher levels.
Echo Volume. Unaltered, echo is just a delay. Naturally the higher the volume the louder your delay. First number is LEFT channel, 2nd RIGHT channel. Negative value inverse waveform.
FIR coefficients. This is tricky and you should read about it. However it may act as a lowpass, highpass, or any kind of filter but it's only applied to the echo buffer. Normally you can get away without using it 127 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 but in order for more realistic reverberation it's gonna be required.
Echo Channel toggle. Enables Echo on respective channels, you can toggle them on/off mid song but I prefer to always leave it enabled. Your SFX should echo in a reverberant environment.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 09, 2016, 22:13:24
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 09, 2016, 13:32:29
Yeah, sorry about not replying earlier, I JUST saw your post on my video. But yeah, the one thing that I hate about SNESGSS is that it has no echo or reverb, which might make songs not sound as great. I think I am gonna try and look at the OpenMPT tutorial, along with what you said here so I can see what I am doing wrong. Again, thanks so much for helping me guys! XD
EDIT: Also, one thing: I have been trying to set the configurations to what you said, but I am not really finding any tutorials who says on how to even find how to set them up. Is there a part on the OpenMPT that says where can you change these? Tbh, this was the one reason I didnt really like OpenMPT and had to give up after one week of trying to even start the actual song. XD
OpenMPT by its nature is not a SNES Tracker. The most accurate way to do things is through MML (scripting language) and at smwcentral there are tools to ease into it. However at the time it was too difficult (not that I can read mml well) so we're gonna scratch that.
Generating an SPC is done by a program called "xm2snes" or "SNESMOD." xm2snes does not provide options for echo buffer so in that case it isn't really better than SNESGSS. SNESMOD does and it's in the link provided by SagaX, author by Mukunda. Get a hold of the program first which is most important. Once you do that it'll be smooth sailing. The Author put in a readme "snesmod_music" and it'll tell you how to setup stuff such as echo buffer.
This is a basic "starter pack" example: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=5A3B4F072C63425D!241&authkey=!AMtmoCFIUwqS8ls&ithint=folder%2cit
[I should not be redistributing the MIDI of someone else so forgive me.]
Contains 2 .it files. An .it that is derived from the midi and an original track (albeit old.) They both illustrate things slightly different because SNESMOD ALSO HAS PROBLEMS. It doesn't properly implement "KEY OFF" so you have to manually note cut/note fade or else you risk some noise which you will get from the Eterna Forest. The Waterworld file is an example of how to better emulate the key off which requires increasing the precision of the track.
With the files use SNESMOD (drag 'em to smconv) to make an SPC. There is a bug in that it creates a 74kb file, this should be 64/65kb instead. Opening them should let you see a little how to enable the echo buffer which is also on the readme. In OpenMPT there is a comments section, the semicolon is to help reader and is not part of the setup.
[[SNESMOD]]
EDL 9
EFB 80
EVOL 64 -64
EFIR 70 16 2 0 3 2 0 1
EON 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
______________
[[SNESMOD]]
Echo Delay Line. Multiply this number by 16 to find the ms of delay. 16x9 = 144 thus 144ms of delay. 32ms is more common with 48ms (EDL 3) being average.
Echo Feedback. The output loops in a feedback buffer continuously to simulate more echos. Feedback will cover up the audio without the FIR filter at higher levels.
Echo Volume. Unaltered, echo is just a delay. Naturally the higher the volume the louder your delay. First number is LEFT channel, 2nd RIGHT channel. Negative value inverse waveform.
FIR coefficients. This is tricky and you should read about it. However it may act as a lowpass, highpass, or any kind of filter but it's only applied to the echo buffer. Normally you can get away without using it 127 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 but in order for more realistic reverberation it's gonna be required.
Echo Channel toggle. Enables Echo on respective channels, you can toggle them on/off mid song but I prefer to always leave it enabled. Your SFX should echo in a reverberant environment.
Hmm, so I can use the IT files as reference, right? Well, I think I got most of what I need to do now. But yeah, thanks for all the help! You are actually helping me tons on making these remixes, and I really appreciate it. If I can ever make the song I am intended to do now (which is basically Bass`s theme from Megaman 7), I will definitely credit you. XD
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 09, 2016, 22:30:29
Hmm, so I can use the IT files as reference, right? Well, I think I got most of what I need to do now. But yeah, thanks for all the help! You are actually helping me tons on making these remixes, and I really appreciate it. If I can ever make the song I am intended to do now (which is basically Bass`s theme from Megaman 7), I will definitely credit you. XD
Essentially yes. While you can use whatever midi (if even then) you want I included the Eterna Forest because by default when you open a MIDI you end up with over 8 channels. SNESMOD will crash if you use more than 8 channels so you have to combine them, which is shown in the .it file. The other one, like mentioned before, is emulating "Key Off" which is required to eliminate clicking that may occur. And no you do not need to credit me, stuff like this is pretty niche so we gotta cling together ;)
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 09, 2016, 22:46:09
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 09, 2016, 22:30:29
Hmm, so I can use the IT files as reference, right? Well, I think I got most of what I need to do now. But yeah, thanks for all the help! You are actually helping me tons on making these remixes, and I really appreciate it. If I can ever make the song I am intended to do now (which is basically Bass`s theme from Megaman 7), I will definitely credit you. XD
Essentially yes. While you can use whatever midi (if even then) you want I included the Eterna Forest because by default when you open a MIDI you end up with over 8 channels. SNESMOD will crash if you use more than 8 channels so you have to combine them, which is shown in the .it file. The other one, like mentioned before, is emulating "Key Off" which is required to eliminate clicking that may occur. And no you do not need to credit me, stuff like this is pretty niche so we gotta cling together ;)
All right. So, I have already done everything that I could to make the song work on a actual SNES (along with getting a working MIDI file for the song), and now I am starting the remix. One thing that I had a lot of problems with SNESGSS was how off-tune the instruments were, and it still seems to be like that in OpenMPT. My question is: what can I do to make the instruments actually sound like the actual song? I know it isnt the MIDI anymore because the MIDI I have is way more faithful to the actual song than the other MIDI files I have gotten (though I have some doubts, so...), and i dont think pitchbending (Portamento) is any good. So, well... I am asking this here. XD
My best guess would be that your melodic samples don't have loop lengths that are divisible by 16, so the tool probably adjusts the loop length, but by changing the loop length of a sample with a very short loop, you also change the loop's pitch. So make sure that all loop lengths are divisible by 16, and then manually adjust the frequency of the sample until it's correct again (or try using the auto-tuner by clicking on the tuning fork icon).
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 10, 2016, 21:39:22
My best guess would be that your melodic samples don't have loop lengths that are divisible by 16, so the tool probably adjusts the loop length, but by changing the loop length of a sample with a very short loop, you also change the loop's pitch. So make sure that all loop lengths are divisible by 16, and then manually adjust the frequency of the sample until it's correct again (or try using the auto-tuner by clicking on the tuning fork icon).
All right. Gonna try this now.
Like SagaX mentioned there are tuning options under the sample panel. Altering the frequency and as mention sample length will affect the pitch. If you require correct pitch the auto tuner will work almost every time. If you have a hard time finding a loop point then use a cross-fade. It'll help 98% of the time, the 2% being extremely short sample lengths and/or loop points.
If I remember correctly 'B' is considered the center of pitch [in the SNES] as opposed to C or something like that. Not sure what you mean by portamento isn't any good. This helped me a lot with learning the .it effects.
http://wiki.openmpt.org/Manual:_Effect_Reference
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 10, 2016, 21:56:23
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 10, 2016, 21:39:22
My best guess would be that your melodic samples don't have loop lengths that are divisible by 16, so the tool probably adjusts the loop length, but by changing the loop length of a sample with a very short loop, you also change the loop's pitch. So make sure that all loop lengths are divisible by 16, and then manually adjust the frequency of the sample until it's correct again (or try using the auto-tuner by clicking on the tuning fork icon).
All right. Gonna try this now.
*sigh* I am trying my best to understand how to make stuff like this on OpenMPT, but the interface is just so confusing that it makes it way harder than it already is. Like really, I cant even get the sounds right nor can I edit the patterns well when there is just so many of them. Tbh, I may try to at least make the song in SNESGSS because its interface is just so much easier, and if I cant do it in there, then I will give OpenMPT another try and see if it works again. If only SNES Tracker gets released, though, then maybe I could actually do echo and reverb (along with being way more faithful in making SNES music than OpenMPT), but with a interface that`s (probably) way easier to understand. I dont really know if there is a way to change the interface, but still, I am wasting too much of my time trying to even start the music. Again, sorry. XD
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 11, 2016, 01:21:08
*sigh* I am trying my best to understand how to make stuff like this on OpenMPT, but the interface is just so confusing that it makes it way harder than it already is. Like really, I cant even get the sounds right nor can I edit the patterns well when there is just so many of them. Tbh, I may try to at least make the song in SNESGSS because its interface is just so much easier, and if I cant do it in there, then I will give OpenMPT another try and see if it works again. If only SNES Tracker gets released, though, then maybe I could actually do echo and reverb (along with being way more faithful in making SNES music than OpenMPT), but with a interface that`s (probably) way easier to understand. I dont really know if there is a way to change the interface, but still, I am wasting too much of my time trying to even start the music. Again, sorry. XD
When it comes to learning ANY tracker the most fundamental thing, in my opinion, is learning the keybindings and interface. I've not fully migrated into OpenMPT but it's difficult to assess the core of the problem. Normally this shouldn't happen but in the coding community it isn't too uncommon.
Do you mind sharing us your project? Even if just a bit; screenshots, while not as useful, might help crack it down. If the issue is simply you're unfamiliar with OpenMPT then we can leave it at that. MilkyTracker is where I started and actually NEEDED a youtube tutorial to get started. Awhile back before that I had the program but no idea how to do anything so just removed it.
Here is a little story. I wanted to make original songs that sound like Donkey Kong Country using its samples. First step was learning MilkyTracker but even though I'd imitate echo/delay within the score and channels it wasn't enough. I needed to go closer and that led me to OpenMPT & SNESMOD. It may sound acceptable and even decent but once you get a hold of that echo buffer I don't think you'll want to go back...... but that might just be me xD
Yes, please give more detailed descriptions than just "I can't get it to work". You have the ingredients to tune your samples (adjust loop lengths and using the auto-tuner or manual tuning), now you have to describe at which step you fail.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 11, 2016, 05:57:33
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 11, 2016, 01:21:08
*sigh* I am trying my best to understand how to make stuff like this on OpenMPT, but the interface is just so confusing that it makes it way harder than it already is. Like really, I cant even get the sounds right nor can I edit the patterns well when there is just so many of them. Tbh, I may try to at least make the song in SNESGSS because its interface is just so much easier, and if I cant do it in there, then I will give OpenMPT another try and see if it works again. If only SNES Tracker gets released, though, then maybe I could actually do echo and reverb (along with being way more faithful in making SNES music than OpenMPT), but with a interface that`s (probably) way easier to understand. I dont really know if there is a way to change the interface, but still, I am wasting too much of my time trying to even start the music. Again, sorry. XD
When it comes to learning ANY tracker the most fundamental thing, in my opinion, is learning the keybindings and interface. I've not fully migrated into OpenMPT but it's difficult to assess the core of the problem. Normally this shouldn't happen but in the coding community it isn't too uncommon. Do you mind sharing us your project? Even if just a bit; screenshots, while not as useful, might help crack it down. If the issue is simply you're unfamiliar with OpenMPT then we can leave it at that. MilkyTracker is where I started and actually NEEDED a youtube tutorial to get started. Awhile back before that I had the program but no idea how to do anything so just removed it.
Here is a little story. I wanted to make original songs that sound like Donkey Kong Country using its samples. First step was learning MilkyTracker but even though I'd imitate echo/delay within the score and channels it wasn't enough. I needed to go closer and that led me to OpenMPT & SNESMOD. It may sound acceptable and even decent but once you get a hold of that echo buffer I don't think you'll want to go back...... but that might just be me xD
Yeah, its probably my fault that I am not really giving enough information. What I mean is that there is 28 different patterns for the song, and that coincides with the interface because SNESGSS actually has a way more simple way, with just one pattern grid and not too hard to edit them. My question is that is there a way to reduce the number of patterns in the song so it becomes easier to edit? Well, I dont think this is going to help much, so here`s the .it file for the song:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvrhmedobc5k7z1/MM7_Bass.it?dl=0
And sorry I didnt do this earlier, btw, I was just afraid someone would get the file and actually claim it as their own. Kinda of a stupid idea, but ehh.
Quoteso it becomes easier to edit
I think here you're arguing against the nature of almost every tracker in existence. :)
The point of having more than just one big pattern is that you can neatly organize and structure your module, typically you have e.g. 2 or 4 bars in each pattern, and every 4 patterns form a group. You can also resize the patterns if you want to have more information in one pattern, but IMHO there is not much benefit in using patterns longer than 128 rows or so.
And more importantly, the conversion tool will probably not anticipate modules with > 200 rows per pattern, because that's not part of the original IT specifications.
Of course if you just import a MIDI file (https://forum.openmpt.org/index.php?topic=5301.0) then things might not be neatly organized into 4 bars per pattern or so, making it harder to edit, but OpenMPT is explicitely not a MIDI editor. By just importing MIDI data into OpenMPT you basically just give up the way you'd normally structure your module, because OpenMPT's MIDI import cannot do this for you.
While the loop points are now divisible by 16 in most of your samples, most of them are not put in sensible places (e.g. right at the sample start, in the sample's attack phase). Optimally the loop should span over a smooth sustained part of the sample, but finding good loop points is an art in itself (especially when they have to be in specific places, like being divisible by 16), and no tracker in the world can help you there. ;)
QuoteI was just afraid someone would get the file and actually claim it as their own.
A file that you yourself just converted from a MIDI file, while it still contains the original MIDI's copyright notice? :P
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 11, 2016, 15:00:47
Quoteso it becomes easier to edit
I think here you're arguing against the nature of almost every tracker in existence. :)
The point of having more than just one big pattern is that you can neatly organize and structure your module, typically you have e.g. 2 or 4 bars in each pattern, and every 4 patterns form a group. You can also resize the patterns if you want to have more information in one pattern, but IMHO there is not much benefit in using patterns longer than 128 rows or so.
And more importantly, the conversion tool will probably not anticipate modules with > 200 rows per pattern, because that's not part of the original IT specifications.
Of course if you just import a MIDI file (https://forum.openmpt.org/index.php?topic=5301.0) then things might not be neatly organized into 4 bars per pattern or so, making it harder to edit, but OpenMPT is explicitely not a MIDI editor. By just importing MIDI data into OpenMPT you basically just give up the way you'd normally structure your module, because OpenMPT's MIDI import cannot do this for you.
While the loop points are now divisible by 16 in most of your samples, most of them are not put in sensible places (e.g. right at the sample start, in the sample's attack phase). Optimally the loop should span over a smooth sustained part of the sample, but finding good loop points is an art in itself (especially when they have to be in specific places, like being divisible by 16), and no tracker in the world can help you there. ;)
QuoteI was just afraid someone would get the file and actually claim it as their own.
A file that you yourself just converted from a MIDI file, while it still contains the original MIDI's copyright notice? :P
Hmm, so I need to use a MIDI editor first in order to arrange the patterns? Well, I am gonna see if that works out. Did you see anything else wrong there, though?
EDIT: Well, actually, I think that I might at least try SNESGSS to see if I can make the song with it. Just because that I am having some ideas on how to make the song in SNESGSS, and I at least wanna try those beforehand.
SagaX has been pretty much on point to say the least 8)
Using a MIDI editor might help you rearrange the notes where you actual start the remix but it's always gonna be split into patterns with 64 bars when imported into OpenMPT. The fact that it's "non-continuous" may not make editing easier but finding mistakes, rotten rhythms, etc. are a lot easier.
The "Starter" folder I shared from the one drive contained to .it files, the one pertaining to your case mostly is Eterna Forest. I included (normally shouldn't) a midi for you to open with OpenMPT and look at the difference. As a result I'm going to try and break it down.
1. MIDI uses multi-sampled instruments/multiple note entries. You will have to edit this in instrument properties if you decide to keep the MIDI instruments. You can look at the Sample Map to determine this.
2. Default MIDI New Note Action is Note Fade for duplicate action. For more accurate/reliable results you're going to want Note Cut.
3. The samples in the IT file should all be divisible by 16. Knowing the "powers of 2's" can help with this, and frankly if you end up with a odd number then you're doing something wrong. Some of the loop points may not be "perfect" but it's hidden pretty well.
4. The MIDI always gives you 32 channels. You can "freely" reduce this for readability, in our case the Eterna MIDI can be brought down to 11 channels.
SNESMOD, though already posted, is found here http://snes.mukunda.com
Drag the Eterna Forest .it into smconvert and it should generate an SPC for you. I believe with SPC700 Player "50% (Mix) feedback" is accurate, based on SNESAMP plugin [if Mix is incorrect it just means I need to make a few edits.]
In SPC700 you can add/remove features, basically listen to what happens without the echo buffer or with Surround Sound disabled (not all games use this) and even taking the FIR Filter off (lower your volume, games like Mortal Kombat use aggressive feedback.)
The Eterna Forest .it is important because it should match and/or exceed the NDS version, particularly played as an SPC. The heavy echoing is actually common among remakes/remixes, more so in the anime. The drum track should be without feedback when played in the surround channel.
Well, I have made the song in SNESGSS, but I still dunno how can I make high-frequency sounds (since I am using strings in this cover) having the looping sound clean and the overall instrument have low-volume and not earpiercing and crap, so I dunno. I dont really know if you need to put echo/reverb on it, but if I really cant do this on SNESGSS, then I may try to use OpenMPT again some other time.
EDIT: Here`s the song, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uCy2hqfyhA
This is an OpenMPT so I'll reply to you on YouTube. If it's a serious issue I can get SNESGSS and tinker around with it but that'll be the extent of the message.
Well, I have been trying to find a perfect looping point for my samples with OpenMPT, but I cant seem to make it not sound like its crackling, along with not sounding like intended. Is there a better way to do this rather than slowly changing the looping point? I can send the samples, if you guys want, but I dunno if that will be necessary or not.
Since without the samples all I can say is "use the spin buttons next to the loop points to find good loop points and the cross-fader to make the loop perfect": Yes, without the actual samples to look at, we can't help you much.
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 25, 2016, 10:42:23
Since without the samples all I can say is "use the spin buttons next to the loop points to find good loop points and the cross-fader to make the loop perfect": Yes, without the actual samples to look at, we can't help you much.
All right, then. Here are the MMX samples I have that are loopable:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rr17de6m4boxnpx/MMX%20Sample%20Pack.rar?dl=0
Here's a quick attempt. The samples are very short and of low quality, so finding suitable loop points (let alone loop points that are divisible by 16) is pretty hard. If they are ripped from SNES songs, then keep in mind that it's not only the sample itself which defines the sound but also how it's used. Clever swapping between several small, bad-sounding samples can often create the illusion of something that sounds much better in sum.
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 25, 2016, 15:44:04
Here's a quick attempt. The samples are very short and of low quality, so finding suitable loop points (let alone loop points that are divisible by 16) is pretty hard. If they are ripped from SNES songs, then keep in mind that it's not only the sample itself which defines the sound but also how it's used. Clever swapping between several small, bad-sounding samples can often create the illusion of something that sounds much better in sum.
All right, then, gonna try and see if they work. Thanks again! XD
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 25, 2016, 15:44:04
Here's a quick attempt. The samples are very short and of low quality, so finding suitable loop points (let alone loop points that are divisible by 16) is pretty hard. If they are ripped from SNES songs, then keep in mind that it's not only the sample itself which defines the sound but also how it's used. Clever swapping between several small, bad-sounding samples can often create the illusion of something that sounds much better in sum.
You actually cheated on some sample loops :P
The sample is to be played until the very last sample slice, that is loop end is identical to the last point in the sample. Example being the strings. The total sample length is 6786 which isn't divisible by 16. For trackers the details are trivial but when it comes to SPCs that is a different story.
In ARAM the sample is ultimately stored in a BRR format and failure to adhere to the previous means you're NOT guaranteed the prescribed sample loop and may likely become a bad loop. That is why "accurate" loops are important unless you got a clever programmer.
The technique you're referring to may require swapping samples from ROM into RAM. I assume that'd be some MML equivalent function-call command. Without a ROM it'd be next to impossible to do that since an SPC is audio state from the SNES ARAM. If you mean having let's say 2 string samples, mid & high strings then "swapping" (instrument change) between the two based on octave/pitch then yes that'll create a more believable sound.
BTW: I know you're just trying to help lol so don't take me too seriously xD
A little tidbit as to why the samples sound bad is in part because a lot of the instruments come from synthesizers around that time. Examples being Roland U-110, Roland SC-55, Korg M1, which I THINK the sample library the Snes dev-kits came with were from the SC-55 but it might be too recent. So basically you're taking a "not really" believable sample set and making it worse by compressing it more. The reverberation on the synthesizers are more powerful, otherwise it's very tricky to get decent reverb on the SNES.
To be honest, if you have time SagaX, I'd like to here you make something SNES.
QuoteThe sample is to be played until the very last sample slice, that is loop end is identical to the last point in the sample. Example being the strings. The total sample length is 6786 which isn't divisible by 16. For trackers the details are trivial but when it comes to SPCs that is a different story.
Or in other words, I simply forgot to trim the sample. Which I would hope would be done automatically by a decent conversion tool anyway.
And btw, it's either Saga or Saga Musix, nothing inbetween. And no, the nick has nothing to do with any RPG Sagas or whatever, before the next person asks.
I believe most BRR conversion tools disregard the loop end instead of trimming it since it's usually assumed (AFAIK) you want as much of the sample as possible. In my early attempts there would sometimes be garbled data at the end of my sample (had a loop end before, garble was small too) and it made it impossible to loop properly. If you simply forgot to trim though then yes you're fine.
And sorry for calling you something else (that is SagaX.) Didn't want to always type Saga Musix but also wanted to acknowledge the clever 'x' at the end of the string so tacked it on to Saga instead. If Saga is fine I'll presumably use that instead :)
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 26, 2016, 12:13:16
And no, the nick has nothing to do with any RPG Sagas or whatever, before the next person asks.
Doubt it did but that's kinda what imagination told me.
QuoteI believe most BRR conversion tools disregard the loop end instead of trimming it since it's usually assumed (AFAIK) you want as much of the sample as possible.
If you directly convert your modules to SNES files, this is not relevant though since you cannot jump beyond the loop end. So I'd hope that e.g. SNESMOD would take this into consideration. If not, these tools clearly need to be improved. ;)
If they are pure WAV files, on the other hand, the authors of those conversion tools probably just didn't bother reading the loop information chunk from WAV files.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 26, 2016, 05:37:07
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 25, 2016, 15:44:04
Here's a quick attempt. The samples are very short and of low quality, so finding suitable loop points (let alone loop points that are divisible by 16) is pretty hard. If they are ripped from SNES songs, then keep in mind that it's not only the sample itself which defines the sound but also how it's used. Clever swapping between several small, bad-sounding samples can often create the illusion of something that sounds much better in sum.
You actually cheated on some sample loops :P
The sample is to be played until the very last sample slice, that is loop end is identical to the last point in the sample. Example being the strings. The total sample length is 6786 which isn't divisible by 16. For trackers the details are trivial but when it comes to SPCs that is a different story.
In ARAM the sample is ultimately stored in a BRR format and failure to adhere to the previous means you're NOT guaranteed the prescribed sample loop and may likely become a bad loop. That is why "accurate" loops are important unless you got a clever programmer.
The technique you're referring to may require swapping samples from ROM into RAM. I assume that'd be some MML equivalent function-call command. Without a ROM it'd be next to impossible to do that since an SPC is audio state from the SNES ARAM. If you mean having let's say 2 string samples, mid & high strings then "swapping" (instrument change) between the two based on octave/pitch then yes that'll create a more believable sound.
BTW: I know you're just trying to help lol so don't take me too seriously xD
A little tidbit as to why the samples sound bad is in part because a lot of the instruments come from synthesizers around that time. Examples being Roland U-110, Roland SC-55, Korg M1, which I THINK the sample library the Snes dev-kits came with were from the SC-55 but it might be too recent. So basically you're taking a "not really" believable sample set and making it worse by compressing it more. The reverberation on the synthesizers are more powerful, otherwise it's very tricky to get decent reverb on the SNES.
To be honest, if you have time SagaX, I'd like to here you make something SNES.
Hmm, so, will I have to get/rip different samples than those that I have so I can get a more accurate loop? Or can that still be done with the samples I have right now? I am kinda confused tbh. XD
Joining the conversation.
QuoteHmm, so, will I have to get/rip different samples than those that I have so I can get a more accurate loop? Or can that still be done with the samples I have right now? I am kinda confused tbh. XD
It can be done with the samples you have. Just reorder the loop points and make sure they are divisible by 16.
Quote from: FreezeFlame(Alchemy) on June 26, 2016, 23:42:43
Joining the conversation.
QuoteHmm, so, will I have to get/rip different samples than those that I have so I can get a more accurate loop? Or can that still be done with the samples I have right now? I am kinda confused tbh. XD
It can be done with the samples you have. Just reorder the loop points and make sure they are divisible by 16.
Well, the samples that Saga modified are already in that way you just said, but they arent really looping the way they are supposed to (along with having a lot of crackling, but I manually took them out so its not that big a deal). Like for example, I am trying to make a cover of Megaman Zero 3`s Trail on Powdery Snow, but the synth brass lead on that sample set isnt looping properly. It might be because of the sample being too short, but still. XD
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 26, 2016, 23:08:47
If you directly convert your modules to SNES files, this is not relevant though since you cannot jump beyond the loop end. So I'd hope that e.g. SNESMOD would take this into consideration. If not, these tools clearly need to be improved. ;)
If they are pure WAV files, on the other hand, the authors of those conversion tools probably just didn't bother reading the loop information chunk from WAV files.
I never tested SNESBRR (think that's the tools name) with a "bad loop" but what's certain is without doing it yourself there is no guarantee of your loop. I've had sample loops that sound good/acceptable in MPT/Milky and turn bad using SNESMOD or the C700 vst (emulates SPC700 chip) because I did not take into consideration some of these things. So while it could work, just for consistency, it's best to do as much upfront as possible that way you're guaranteed the smallest file size with the BRR data.
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 27, 2016, 00:33:47
Well, the samples that Saga modified are already in that way you just said, but they arent really looping the way they are supposed to (along with having a lot of crackling, but I manually took them out so its not that big a deal). Like for example, I am trying to make a cover of Megaman Zero 3`s Trail on Powdery Snow, but the synth brass lead on that sample set isnt looping properly. It might be because of the sample being too short, but still. XD
Those samples are honestly a lot shorter than expected but I'll see if I can get them to loop a bit nicer.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 27, 2016, 01:52:37
Quote from: Saga Musix on June 26, 2016, 23:08:47
If you directly convert your modules to SNES files, this is not relevant though since you cannot jump beyond the loop end. So I'd hope that e.g. SNESMOD would take this into consideration. If not, these tools clearly need to be improved. ;)
If they are pure WAV files, on the other hand, the authors of those conversion tools probably just didn't bother reading the loop information chunk from WAV files.
I never tested SNESBRR (think that's the tools name) with a "bad loop" but what's certain is without doing it yourself there is no guarantee of your loop. I've had sample loops that sound good/acceptable in MPT/Milky and turn bad using SNESMOD or the C700 vst (emulates SPC700 chip) because I did not take into consideration some of these things. So while it could work, just for consistency, it's best to do as much upfront as possible that way you're guaranteed the smallest file size with the BRR data.
Quote from: Theultimate12 on June 27, 2016, 00:33:47
Well, the samples that Saga modified are already in that way you just said, but they arent really looping the way they are supposed to (along with having a lot of crackling, but I manually took them out so its not that big a deal). Like for example, I am trying to make a cover of Megaman Zero 3`s Trail on Powdery Snow, but the synth brass lead on that sample set isnt looping properly. It might be because of the sample being too short, but still. XD
Those samples are honestly a lot shorter than expected but I'll see if I can get them to loop a bit nicer.
Oh yeah, I actually forgot to upload the updated samples, along with the MMX2 overdrive guitar one (since that was also supposed to be on the .zip file, but I forgot to put it in the pack). Here is the revised sample pack:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkfd7ptzrcau2c1/MMX%20Sample%20Pack%20V.2.rar?dl=0
The thing is whoever ripped those samples or the utility they used is what created the problem. I tried looping the samples myself and the fact some weren't [x =16 + 16n] is already enough to spell disaster. If you convert from BRR -> WAV then there is no reason to end up with an arbitrary sample length as 16 is the smallest BRR block size. Obvious enough when the person who ripped it couldn't loop it properly. This section explains the BRR format and it is why I stress 16 samples so much. http://problemkaputt.de/fullsnes.htm#snesapudspbrrsamples (http://problemkaputt.de/fullsnes.htm#snesapudspbrrsamples)
Long story short is wherever you got those samples I can't vouch for it's "goodness." You are probably better off ripping the files from the rom/SPC which is what I did. Didn't get all but most of the instruments from your file. They are .xi or Fast Tracker II instruments.
Well, I have converted the samples Enumerating (can I call you that?) gave me to a WAV format, gotten the missing sample I needed (the X2/X3 distortion guitar) and changed the frequency of all of them, along with trying to find a great loop point in all of them. The problem is, though, is that I dunno if these are good enough loops or not (probably not, but ehh), so I`ll send these samples again for you guys. Thanks so much for helping me do this, btw! XD
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ptt6b73utn65qhk/MMX%20Sample%20Pack%20V.3.rar?dl=0
I'm not sure what you did but a lot of those samples wound up as stereo and the loop points seem worse than before. You should avoid changing the sample rate whenever possible because that affects sample size/length and may screw with delicate loops. If you exported the sample from the .xi properly you should end up with accurate instruments. The attachment contains the .xi instruments as a wav file. If a sample is too high/low in pitch then all you need to do is transpose it, otherwise avoid changing the sample rate.
If you need a specific sample/instrument looped properly I'd recommend ripping it from an .spc file. If you rip it from a ROM and the frequency is incorrect/untuned then you'll end up with a non 16 divisible sample (like the pack you sent us) and it'll cause nightmares unless math is done to adjust sample frequency but why do all that when the SPC already gives you the loop points? For a tracker forum we're almost going out of scope :P
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 28, 2016, 02:13:38
I'm not sure what you did but a lot of those samples wound up as stereo and the loop points seem worse than before. You should avoid changing the sample rate whenever possible because that affects sample size/length and may screw with delicate loops. If you exported the sample from the .xi properly you should end up with accurate instruments. The attachment contains the .xi instruments as a wav file. If a sample is too high/low in pitch then all you need to do is transpose it, otherwise avoid changing the sample rate.
If you need a specific sample/instrument looped properly I'd recommend ripping it from an .spc file. If you rip it from a ROM and the frequency is incorrect/untuned then you'll end up with a non 16 divisible sample (like the pack you sent us) and it'll cause nightmares unless math is done to adjust sample frequency but why do all that when the SPC already gives you the loop points? For a tracker forum we're almost going out of scope :P
Well, I have actualy converted the .xi file with this: https://www.coolutils.com/online/XI-to-WAV#, but it isnt really working as expected. Which converter would be best to use?
Also, how do I make so the samples produced in the .spc file are actually like the ones you sent me? I have been trying to rip some Seiken Densetsu 3 samples (along with getting the X2/X3`s distorted guitar that was missing from the samples you sent me), but the samples I am getting in the .spc file arent looping like you said they would. Do I have to do this manually or...?
First off is you don't need to convert .xi files with openmpt. You could load it right in. When you are ripping, are you doing it from the SPC or ROM? Also are you getting a .brr file or a .wav file? Ideally it should be a BRR file. As a last resort you can loop them yourself but it all depends on HOW you rip it.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 29, 2016, 03:30:01
First off is you don't need to convert .xi files with openmpt. You could load it right in. When you are ripping, are you doing it from the SPC or ROM? Also are you getting a .brr file or a .wav file? Ideally it should be a BRR file. As a last resort you can loop them yourself but it all depends on HOW you rip it.
Well, I have ripped the samples from the SPC with SPC Decoder, and they all have been coming off as .wav files. Should I convert them to BRR and then back to WAV? Or would that still not work? XD
There wouldn't be much point in converting it to a BRR if it comes out as a .wav file. If the .wav is divisible by 16 then you could find a loop point without much effort, if not then we've got problems.
In any case I think you should maybe work on "fundamentals." Rather than remix/re-outfitting for SNES I'd recommend that you try improving on the OST, that is exceeding the capabilities of the original hardware. Soundfonts are a good start until then. No it's not telling you to quit, however the experiences you learn will be valuable when you return to do an MMX cover. You're getting better (since your first) however the path you've taken isn't the most optimal in my opinion.
Not sure how to explain it (might not make sense) but it's like you have a 3D model and you're trying to recreate that model with Legos without knowing how Legos work. Look up some OpenMPT Tutorials or actually fiddle with FL Studio (probably easier.) Even if temporarily, forget about the SNES and just worry about the music. Once you have how it "sounds" then you can change the flavor. Without knowing how the Super Nintendo works it's difficult to get something [objectively] good out of it, without good music fundamentals it only makes that task even more insurmountable.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on June 29, 2016, 22:46:38
There wouldn't be much point in converting it to a BRR if it comes out as a .wav file. If the .wav is divisible by 16 then you could find a loop point without much effort, if not then we've got problems.
In any case I think you should maybe work on "fundamentals." Rather than remix/re-outfitting for SNES I'd recommend that you try improving on the OST, that is exceeding the capabilities of the original hardware. Soundfonts are a good start until then. No it's not telling you to quit, however the experiences you learn will be valuable when you return to do an MMX cover. You're getting better (since your first) however the path you've taken isn't the most optimal in my opinion.
Not sure how to explain it (might not make sense) but it's like you have a 3D model and you're trying to recreate that model with Legos without knowing how Legos work. Look up some OpenMPT Tutorials or actually fiddle with FL Studio (probably easier.) Even if temporarily, forget about the SNES and just worry about the music. Once you have how it "sounds" then you can change the flavor. Without knowing how the Super Nintendo works it's difficult to get something [objectively] good out of it, without good music fundamentals it only makes that task even more insurmountable.
Hmm, all right. Yeah, I might do that, actually, though I`ll at least see how far can I go with making songs like this. If it doesnt work, then I`ll just use FL Studio and start working with soundfonts.
EDIT: Also, i have found what was wrong. It was basically because I havent made them loop, so that`s why that didnt work. Sorry! XD
Well, I want to know something: is there anyway to shorten a MIDI file`s size or length? The MIDI files I have arent working with SNESGSS, so I imagine that its because of the size or the length of the MIDI being too much for the program to handle.
Once again, OpenMPT is not a MIDI editor. If you need to do any kind of editing of MIDI files, grab a real MIDI editor.
Quote from: Theultimate12 on July 04, 2016, 15:10:45
Well, I want to know something: is there anyway to shorten a MIDI file`s size or length? The MIDI files I have arent working with SNESGSS, so I imagine that its because of the size or the length of the MIDI being too much for the program to handle.
Quote from: Saga Musix on July 04, 2016, 15:57:25
Once again, OpenMPT is not a MIDI editor. If you need to do any kind of editing of MIDI files, grab a real MIDI editor.
Pretty much this. Anvil Studio is a good free midi editor/creation device. FL Studio is a powerful MIDI tool as well. OpenMPT, while it supports MIDI, it is somewhat rudimentary in its functions. In theory you could import it (the midi) edit it as a tracker file and export it as a MIDI but you're not guaranteed the same results as when you first started.
Quote from: Saga Musix on July 04, 2016, 15:57:25
Once again, OpenMPT is not a MIDI editor. If you need to do any kind of editing of MIDI files, grab a real MIDI editor.
That`s what I said, actually. Sorry for not specifying that earlier. XD
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 04, 2016, 16:09:53
Quote from: Theultimate12 on July 04, 2016, 15:10:45
Well, I want to know something: is there anyway to shorten a MIDI file`s size or length? The MIDI files I have arent working with SNESGSS, so I imagine that its because of the size or the length of the MIDI being too much for the program to handle.
Quote from: Saga Musix on July 04, 2016, 15:57:25
Once again, OpenMPT is not a MIDI editor. If you need to do any kind of editing of MIDI files, grab a real MIDI editor.
Pretty much this. Anvil Studio is a good free midi editor/creation device. FL Studio is a powerful MIDI tool as well. OpenMPT, while it supports MIDI, it is somewhat rudimentary in its functions. In theory you could import it (the midi) edit it as a tracker file and export it as a MIDI but you're not guaranteed the same results as when you first started.
Well, I am going to use Anvil Studio (I cant use it now since I am not at home rn), so if I get any errors, then I`ll tell you guys.
EDIT: Well, actually, I am trying to find tutorials on how to shortenthe size of MIDI files with Anvil Studio, but all I am getting is tutorials on how to cut its length. How can I cut a MIDI file`s overall size with Anvil Studio without affecting the length? That`s what I want to know. XD
MIDI is not like a wave file that can be compressed.
MIDI is like a script language. In order to make the file smaller, you simply have to cut out data. Sometimes a midi can have a very long sustained note at the end, and you may want to move the end point of that sustained note, which would shorten the midi, but not remove notes etc. But if you actually want to lower the filesize, then you will have to remove note information.
If you don't understand what I mean, open OpenMPT, load a song, Go to any pattern with notes in them, select all, copy, and paste that in a notepad. What you're seeing is a rough idea of what a MIDI is all about.
MIDI is nothing more than a macro recording of note on and off messages and parameter changes.
Without compression (which would invalidate the format anyways) or removing superfluous channels/instruments/blablabla this is next to impossible. There are various MIDI formats and it is possible to save it as a different one. AFAIK what you speak of is not exactly possible by "normal" mean. If you believe the MIDI is too large then you will probably need to remove stuff, might want to read about the MIDI format to make it as "effortless" as possible. If you're trying to run the MIDI through SNESGSS then it's unlikely that the file is too large but rather the formatting is not accepted, that isn't to say I actually know what you mean by it's "not working."
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 04, 2016, 23:25:53
Without compression (which would invalidate the format anyways) or removing superfluous channels/instruments/blablabla this is next to impossible. There are various MIDI formats and it is possible to save it as a different one. AFAIK what you speak of is not exactly possible by "normal" mean. If you believe the MIDI is too large then you will probably need to remove stuff, might want to read about the MIDI format to make it as "effortless" as possible. If you're trying to run the MIDI through SNESGSS then it's unlikely that the file is too large but rather the formatting is not accepted, that isn't to say I actually know what you mean by it's "not working."
Hmm, all right, so I cant actually make the MIDI file small without cutting the length of the MIDI or removing superfluous instruments. Got it. Though I still cant really find any concrete tutorials on how to trim a MIDI file with Anvil Studio or to cut its size overall. Sorry for my stupidity here, btw. XD
The problem is you say they (the MIDI's) "aren't working" and that in itself is pretty vague. Is the MIDI not loading? Does the sequence data not come out right? Tech/Tech-like forums often require specific examples as generalizations only lead to generalized answers. Like I mentioned it's ENTIRELY possible it's not a problem with the midi file size, at least directly.
The thing is it's not that the questions are stupid but there are steps that can be taken to reduce the amount of trouble you encounter with it. That is I believe you do not quite understand the SNES or more appropriately how the hardware works. Therefor when you use tools, such as SNESGSS, and run into problems it's usually unclear when in fact there is an easy solution. Here is an example, we've stated and if you run emulators or run your SPC on certain SPC Players it is evident the hardware supports 8-discrete channels to play a voice. Since you can normally only have 8-voices in flight and your MIDI file is "too big." You could then imply the polyphony of the MIDI exceeds the waveform limit of the SNES hardware. It's not uncommon for people to put in duplicate MIDI channels as an echo effect, but it can be redundant in cases because the SNES hardware is capable of performing echo, only need 8kb for excellent "reverberation."
To go along with what's being said above it should be noted MIDI isn't very accurate to hardware. If you ask me MML is more MIDI than MOD but tracker formats from a high level sense exposes the hardware much better than MIDI which is why I more or less recommend OpenMPT or just any tracker in general. While SNESGSS resembles a tracker in some ways it in itself is not meant to be a tracker or really a music authoring device which was even mentioned by the developer himself. The effects for the effect column is unconventional, and it by default (if I read correctly) disables stereo output because most TV sets (not in this day and age!) only had mono sound. Lastly, while I have the program, the official link is broken so aside from those who already have the software it's going to be very difficult to find the help you need. Excuse my wall of text.
TLDR: SNESGSS MIDI import
Quote from: readme.txtThe MIDI import supports both format 0 and 1. It expects that notes are
placed in channels 1-8 (or 1-6 plus drum channel), and there is no more
than 1 note in a channel at a time. It imports notes only, with
instrument assigned by the channel number. If the drum channel is
present, it gets imported into SNES channels 7-8, channel 7 is used for
hats, and channel 8 for kick, snare, and toms. Instrument numbers
assigned to different drums are 10 for kick, 11 for snare, 12 for toms,
On YouTube I recommend you look up and send a message to "Harumi Makoto." I've actually learned a number of things from them regarding the SNES. They might be able to provide you with some information.
We've pretty much regurgitated everything relevant SNES for you and by the end of page 1 there has actually been no new information. In some shape or form
all your issues thus far has largely been a result of failure to comply with the SNES hardware specifications.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 05, 2016, 04:45:25
The problem is you say they (the MIDI's) "aren't working" and that in itself is pretty vague. Is the MIDI not loading? Does the sequence data not come out right? Tech/Tech-like forums often require specific examples as generalizations only lead to generalized answers. Like I mentioned it's ENTIRELY possible it's not a problem with the midi file size, at least directly.
The thing is it's not that the questions are stupid but there are steps that can be taken to reduce the amount of trouble you encounter with it. That is I believe you do not quite understand the SNES or more appropriately how the hardware works. Therefor when you use tools, such as SNESGSS, and run into problems it's usually unclear when in fact there is an easy solution. Here is an example, we've stated and if you run emulators or run your SPC on certain SPC Players it is evident the hardware supports 8-discrete channels to play a voice. Since you can normally only have 8-voices in flight and your MIDI file is "too big." You could then imply the polyphony of the MIDI exceeds the waveform limit of the SNES hardware. It's not uncommon for people to put in duplicate MIDI channels as an echo effect, but it can be redundant in cases because the SNES hardware is capable of performing echo, only need 8kb for excellent "reverberation."
To go along with what's being said above it should be noted MIDI isn't very accurate to hardware. If you ask me MML is more MIDI than MOD but tracker formats from a high level sense exposes the hardware much better than MIDI which is why I more or less recommend OpenMPT or just any tracker in general. While SNESGSS resembles a tracker in some ways it in itself is not meant to be a tracker or really a music authoring device which was even mentioned by the developer himself. The effects for the effect column is unconventional, and it by default (if I read correctly) disables stereo output because most TV sets (not in this day and age!) only had mono sound. Lastly, while I have the program, the official link is broken so aside from those who already have the software it's going to be very difficult to find the help you need. Excuse my wall of text.
TLDR: SNESGSS MIDI import Quote from: readme.txtThe MIDI import supports both format 0 and 1. It expects that notes are
placed in channels 1-8 (or 1-6 plus drum channel), and there is no more
than 1 note in a channel at a time. It imports notes only, with
instrument assigned by the channel number. If the drum channel is
present, it gets imported into SNES channels 7-8, channel 7 is used for
hats, and channel 8 for kick, snare, and toms. Instrument numbers
assigned to different drums are 10 for kick, 11 for snare, 12 for toms,
On YouTube I recommend you look up and send a message to "Harumi Makoto." I've actually learned a number of things from them regarding the SNES. They might be able to provide you with some information.
We've pretty much regurgitated everything relevant SNES for you and by the end of page 1 there has actually been no new information. In some shape or form all your issues thus far has largely been a result of failure to comply with the SNES hardware specifications.
*sigh* Sorry, blame my complete lack of knowledge on this regard. Anyway, yes, the MIDI is not actually loading in SNESGSS, and even when I did this on OpenMPT, after I reduced the number of channels to 8, there were a lot of instruments missing. And after I seen this comment, I am thinking that its probably because of the instruments exceeding the 8-channel limit (though I still dunno how can I look if the instruments are stereo or not on Anvil Studio). I`ll send the MIDI files now, if you guys want to look. Again, really sorry for the lack of information I have been giving.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/px5we5w42v7ugzj/MIDI%20Files.rar?dl=0
Quote from: Theultimate12 on July 05, 2016, 13:57:57
*sigh* Sorry, blame my complete lack of knowledge on this regard. Anyway, yes, the MIDI is not actually loading in SNESGSS, and even when I did this on OpenMPT, after I reduced the number of channels to 8, there were a lot of instruments missing. And after I seen this comment, I am thinking that its probably because of the instruments exceeding the 8-channel limit (though I still dunno how can I look if the instruments are stereo or not on Anvil Studio). I`ll send the MIDI files now, if you guys want to look. Again, really sorry for the lack of information I have been giving.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/px5we5w42v7ugzj/MIDI%20Files.rar?dl=0 (ftp://www.dropbox.com/s/px5we5w42v7ugzj/MIDI%20Files.rar?dl=0)
The link for dropbox is timing out for me so I'm unable to take a look at this moment. To say the least the comment sounds meaner than it should so please don't take me too seriously xD
Right now my best advice is for you to read my quote regarding the SNESGSS MIDI import. If the MIDI you're using does not adhere to the author's notes then you're file is by no means guaranteed to work.
Also in OpenMPT you do not simply reduce the channels to 8 or you WILL have missing notes and such. You have to manually reorganize the data to fit into the first 8 channels, or as much of it as possible, and then you shorten it. This unsurprisingly can require a bit of effort but it almost always yields good results. SNESGSS only allows 8-channels but with OpenMPT you have a large enough amount to see the entire MIDI File. As a result you can (more work required) turn certain chords into a multipolyphony sample and simulate a larger amount of voices than the hardware's design.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 05, 2016, 23:33:09
Quote from: Theultimate12 on July 05, 2016, 13:57:57
*sigh* Sorry, blame my complete lack of knowledge on this regard. Anyway, yes, the MIDI is not actually loading in SNESGSS, and even when I did this on OpenMPT, after I reduced the number of channels to 8, there were a lot of instruments missing. And after I seen this comment, I am thinking that its probably because of the instruments exceeding the 8-channel limit (though I still dunno how can I look if the instruments are stereo or not on Anvil Studio). I`ll send the MIDI files now, if you guys want to look. Again, really sorry for the lack of information I have been giving.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/px5we5w42v7ugzj/MIDI%20Files.rar?dl=0 (ftp://www.dropbox.com/s/px5we5w42v7ugzj/MIDI%20Files.rar?dl=0)
The link for dropbox is timing out for me so I'm unable to take a look at this moment. To say the least the comment sounds meaner than it should so please don't take me too seriously xD
Right now my best advice is for you to read my quote regarding the SNESGSS MIDI import. If the MIDI you're using does not adhere to the author's notes then you're file is by no means guaranteed to work.
Also in OpenMPT you do not simply reduce the channels to 8 or you WILL have missing notes and such. You have to manually reorganize the data to fit into the first 8 channels, or as much of it as possible, and then you shorten it. This unsurprisingly can require a bit of effort but it almost always yields good results. SNESGSS only allows 8-channels but with OpenMPT you have a large enough amount to see the entire MIDI File. As a result you can (more work required) turn certain chords into a multipolyphony sample and simulate a larger amount of voices than the hardware's design.
All right. Try this link, then. Sorry, I actually put it as a .ftp link, so the link didnt register. XD
https://www.dropbox.com/s/px5we5w42v7ugzj/MIDI%20Files.rar?dl=0
And nah, dont worry about it. XD
Read this more closely. When you do take a look at the MIDIs with Anvil Studio.
Quote from: readme.txtThe MIDI import supports both format 0 and 1. It expects that notes are
placed in channels 1-8 (or 1-6 plus drum channel), and there is no more
than 1 note in a channel at a time. It imports notes only, with
instrument assigned by the channel number. If the drum channel is
present, it gets imported into SNES channels 7-8, channel 7 is used for
hats, and channel 8 for kick, snare, and toms. Instrument numbers
assigned to different drums are 10 for kick, 11 for snare, 12 for toms,
13 for hats.
Drum channel is Channel 10. The number of simultaneous voices in each of them easily exceed 8. Not only that but one of the is over 5min long, at least with N-SPC I think the max length for sequence data is around 3:30s. Without extensive work it is nigh impossible to make it sound any better on the SNES. That is those midi's are "PSX tier", a system allowing 24 voices concurrently. You should bite the bullet and every now & then work with OpenMPT. Lately I've been musically uninspired so all I do is take songs and turn them into SPCs. On your leisure go to the Free Download section in the forums and open some tracker files so you can see what the program is capable of.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 06, 2016, 03:49:07
Read this more closely. When you do take a look at the MIDIs with Anvil Studio.
Quote from: readme.txtThe MIDI import supports both format 0 and 1. It expects that notes are
placed in channels 1-8 (or 1-6 plus drum channel), and there is no more
than 1 note in a channel at a time. It imports notes only, with
instrument assigned by the channel number. If the drum channel is
present, it gets imported into SNES channels 7-8, channel 7 is used for
hats, and channel 8 for kick, snare, and toms. Instrument numbers
assigned to different drums are 10 for kick, 11 for snare, 12 for toms,
13 for hats.
Drum channel is Channel 10. The number of simultaneous voices in each of them easily exceed 8. Not only that but one of the is over 5min long, at least with N-SPC I think the max length for sequence data is around 3:30s. Without extensive work it is nigh impossible to make it sound any better on the SNES. That is those midi's are "PSX tier", a system allowing 24 voices concurrently. You should bite the bullet and every now & then work with OpenMPT. Lately I've been musically uninspired so all I do is take songs and turn them into SPCs. On your leisure go to the Free Download section in the forums and open some tracker files so you can see what the program is capable of.
Yeah, that`s what I am thinking too tbh, especially since a lot of songs I want to make would REALLY benefit with some echo (like Megaman 8`s OST), so I think that I`ll try and use OpenMPT for that, then. XD
EDIT: But yeah, about the MIDI files (well, at least, the Touhou ones), I found out that the Vessel of Stars ~ Casket of Star MIDI file wasnt working because SNESGSS couldnt really translate the japanese words that was in the name of the MIDI well (yeah, I know, a pretty weird reason, right? XD). The Strawberry Crisis one, however... I think that I`ll going to have to cut the overall time of the MIDI file and see if it works. Sadly, though, I dont think that the Destiny MIDI is going to work well, since I am going to have to cut its quality exponentially, so I`ll just leave it at that (or just use OpenMPT for that, when I can not be lazy and try to arrange the notes on the MIDI file). XD
EDIT 2: Well, I have tried taking out the instruments at the start of the loop on the Strawberry Crisis MIDI, but I still dunno how to actually cut the loop (and I am not finding concrete enough tutorials for that, so I have no idea on how to find tutorials either). Is Anvil Studio really the best MIDI editor to cut loops on the MIDI file? I`m asking that because I saw that the MIDI file in question could actually work on SNESGSS, since I actually removed some of its instruments to fit the 8-channel limit and it worked just fine (especially since the MIDI had, like, 9 channels total and a shitload of duplicate channels, so it didnt really have any alteration on the overall sound), but if it still doesnt work after I cut the loop, I`ll give it a try on OpenMPT and do the song that way.
It's not just about the midi. You have to make sure there are NO CHORDS whatsoever in a channel. Even if you bring it down to precisely 8, a channel that ends up playing 2 notes at the same time could bring the polyphony higher than 8. I know you mentioned you have FL Studio and that program can also edit MIDI's as well. If you're not particularly good at reading sheet music then FL Studio is a better editing option, after all it's a paid DAW.
You could make any MIDI work but it's just a matter of creativity and how much effort you're willing to put into it. Each of those midis contain chords in them so no matter what it's not going to be a trivial task.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 06, 2016, 23:03:36
It's not just about the midi. You have to make sure there are NO CHORDS whatsoever in a channel. Even if you bring it down to precisely 8, a channel that ends up playing 2 notes at the same time could bring the polyphony higher than 8. I know you mentioned you have FL Studio and that program can also edit MIDI's as well. If you're not particularly good at reading sheet music then FL Studio is a better editing option, after all it's a paid DAW.
You could make any MIDI work but it's just a matter of creativity and how much effort you're willing to put into it. Each of those midis contain chords in them so no matter what it's not going to be a trivial task.
Well, I have tried putting the MIDI files into FL Studio, but when I tried to look at the MIDI channels, all of them said they had no chords. How can you find and remove chords, though? That`s what I want to know. XD
That is where taking a music class would've come in handy, if you did then word that question better. :P
Believe me I'm trying to help but it was no joke when saying you should take your time and work on a smaller project, at least try out making an original song. That (the chords) is probably the least intelligent question you've asked thus far. The rest were tracker/SNES related but this is very much a musical thing. It's possible you didn't import the track right but even then.
A chord is 2 or more notes playing concurrently. Example being C-E-B. Anvil Studio already shows you the channels/parts with chords but FL Studio is easier for extensive editing. Honestly right now you're trying to bite off more than you can chew with those files. Number 1 the total polyphony exceeds 8. Number 2 the midi includes chords which isn't conformant to the SNESGSS Midi Import Function. Of course you could still pull it off and make the SPC but ultimately it's going to sound stripped down and potentially even empty. Most people when they do covers actually use soundfonts. Only the most hardcore will use ASM and/or MML, the try-hards will make SPCs through other means.
Quote from: Enumeratingw7 on July 07, 2016, 06:23:30
That is where taking a music class would've come in handy, if you did then word that question better. :P
Believe me I'm trying to help but it was no joke when saying you should take your time and work on a smaller project, at least try out making an original song. That (the chords) is probably the least intelligent question you've asked thus far. The rest were tracker/SNES related but this is very much a musical thing. It's possible you didn't import the track right but even then.
A chord is 2 or more notes playing concurrently. Example being C-E-B. Anvil Studio already shows you the channels/parts with chords but FL Studio is easier for extensive editing. Honestly right now you're trying to bite off more than you can chew with those files. Number 1 the total polyphony exceeds 8. Number 2 the midi includes chords which isn't conformant to the SNESGSS Midi Import Function. Of course you could still pull it off and make the SPC but ultimately it's going to sound stripped down and potentially even empty. Most people when they do covers actually use soundfonts. Only the most hardcore will use ASM and/or MML, the try-hards will make SPCs through other means.
Yeah, all right, then. I dont think that I can do this anyway, so I think that I`ll just leave it at that for now. Really sorry for bothering you with all of this. XD
To summarize: No, there is no "make any song automatically sound great on the SNES" tool and there most likely never will be. Writing music within the SNES limitations is a lot of manual labour and if you are not willing to invest tons of time into that, then better don't try writing (or converting) SNES music.
End of thread. :)
Quote from: Saga Musix on July 07, 2016, 15:12:27
To summarize: No, there is no "make any song automatically sound great on the SNES" tool and there most likely never will be. Writing music within the SNES limitations is a lot of manual labour and if you are not willing to invest tons of time into that, then better don't try writing (or converting) SNES music.
End of thread. :)
Yeah, I know. I am trying my best to understand all of this shit, though, and heck, I have been doing pretty damn well so far, so I think that I can do actual SNES styled music. Plus, I actually found working MIDI files for the songs I mentioned AND there is a program which lets me get MIDI files from DS games (since the other songs I want to get MIDI files of are from DS games), so its not all lost.