The new MPTM format has the ability to have custom tuning for your samples. I was wondering if its possible to somehow finetune the output of VSTi's notes that are sent through midi.
I'll explain the reasoning behind it.
As of world war 2, hitler has set the music standard to work on 440 hz for the basenote. This used to be 432hz.
I find 432hz to give a much warmer sound and I'd like to start developing songs using this 432 hz standard instead of the default 440.
To give a good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm67Ww0xZ8I (this song is made on the 432hz frequency and it grabs me alot more than another song on 440hz. (example 440hz song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy_ow5opjdM )
I could ofcource use samples and I'd have it fixed. Just tune everything around the 432 and done. Unfortunatelly for me, I use VSTi's alot.
So my question is: is it possible to somehow alter the sound of modplug so it outputs at 432hz instead of 440hz?
"sounding warmer" doesn't have to mean anything, really, it's just because it's different from what you hear under normal conditions. Same thing happens to me if I transpose my own pieces of music up a 1 to 3 semitones, it often sounds warmer.
Quote from: "Jojo""sounding warmer" doesn't have to mean anything, really, it's just because it's different from what you hear under normal conditions. Same thing happens to me if I transpose my own pieces of music up a 1 to 3 semitones, it often sounds warmer.
Actually there's a deeper meaning behind this. 432hz is a natural frequency on which our body energy (chacra's) fibrate. Its a universal frequency, and the theory is that when listening music on this standard, it'll touch you more than on 440hz.
But I gladly like to hand out a good comparison example if I am somehow able to get it to work at 432hz.
Hmm... You know what, for this occasion, I'll make a chiptune in 2 versions. one at 440hz and one at 432hz. You can then judge it yourself.
I'll do this in the upcoming days. I already downloaded NCH Tone Generator to hear the actual difference and 432hz is more pleasing to listen to than the 440hz one. Atleast thats my opinion.
But that doesn't stop this question from keeping in my mind though. Is there any way I would be able to detune/finetune the output of everything in OpenMPT? or just somehow change the frequency notes are being transmitted through midi to the VSTi's?
I dunno if the frequencies are sent or actual notes. I actually hope for frequencies.
You can override the playback frequency on some cards (like mine), but that way, I can't make that small differences. For example, if modplug is running at 48khz, i can slow it down to 44khz. it will be slower and lower, nothing else. I think you can't apply this to VSTs without slowing the whole processing down, since you send midi messages to them. many vsts should have a finetune slider, though.
OT - hm, 432 is indeed a more natural one with a base number of 3, than 440 with 5 and 11.
VSTis receive MIDI note numbers, so unless the instrument itself has a finetune facility, I'm afraid this is no dice. FWIW, Kontakt can finetune... :)
Hmm... I might have to restrain myself from using VSTi's then.
I've decided that the example case won't be a chiptune. I have planned to make a C64 remix and I can do that with samples only. So this will be a perfect testcase to demonstrate the differences between a 440hz base and 432hz base.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"OT - hm, 432 is indeed a more natural one with a base number of 3, than 440 with 5 and 11.
But this again is just stuff that humans made up, the "magic" numbers...
well, I don't believe in "magic" numbers, but some things are just natural physics, like doubling the freq. for an octave.
That's true, but then again, I don't consider that as a "magic" number. Splitting every number into as many "magic numbers" (like 2, 3, 7, 12, etc.) is just silly.
Honestly,
I don't want this topic to turn into if its right or wrong or special or what not about using 432hz instead of 440hz. I just want to write music using this standard. If I need to give an argument other than the previous ones, then it is this: I want to do it differently.
But I'm not looking for a debate about the 440hz vs 432hz standard, I'm just looking for a way to change this. Any help would be appreciated.
I've considered the ability to render to wav and somehow alter the wav file.
Btw, changing the frequency from 48khz to 44khz doesn't change the sound at all or not desirable. When I play it together with a sine on 440hz I hear no difference in tone.
I never said that you should change the playback frequency in modplug or the wav renderer. You can't do this on any devices (and soundblasters certainly are _not_ included in that list :P), but f.e. on my soundcard, you can alter the playback frequency of the buffer to something different than the frequency specified by the application that's currently using the soundcard.
Right on LPChip, that's why I called my mathematical remark 'off-topic' in the first place.
Now I've been called senseless and silly so far, so I'll pass again.
I didn't call you silly, and you even distanced yourself from "magic" numbers in your previous post. I just don't like people who try to find out where there is one of those numbers like 3 - the holy number, 4 - the earth, etc. in other numbers.
I think most good VSTs allows for detuning.
Off Topic: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
(off topic?):
As for myself, i found that the higher frequencies sounds good most of the time anyway. They have a same "meaning" to me on a few notes lower or higher, but the low frequencies (like bass) or the similar sounds are really bad if they are 2 deep or too high, so i'm tuning these frequencies first to sound optimal, then add the higher ones on them.
Sam_Zen even if some people would call you "senseless and silly", that shouldn't really offend you imo. You got your ideas and have reasons behind them, even using them on some of your compositions. They can have their options too. I'm, for example, most of the time having a nice bath or drink few glass of water before longer composing, because i enjoy the water very much and i feel more relaxed and creative when i'm near it. This can be silly for normal people, but it helps and making me happy.
2 psishock
You probably got a point there, and I don't feel offensed, or taking it personally. I'm beyond such a stage for a while.
I like to discuss things, also from different angles, but such classifications just slam the bottom out of the debate.
(on topic):
I think LP is right with his experiment. One chooses a piece with a certain groundtone. If shifted just a bit higher or lower could indeed make a different impression on the brain, which is combining all the frequencies involved.
Maybe the same is valid if a song is played with a slightly different clockspeed.
I will provide a testcase of the same song tracked with 440hz and 432hz so you can judge for yourself, and we can continue that discussion at that point. For now I'd like to know as many options in getting the sound detuned, possibly also the easiest ones. If indeed VSTi's are ruled out I might have to make me one for this purpose. I've done that again, and I feel comfortable enough using my own VSTi in many songs. Drums aren't really affected by this, so thats not a problem.
Now, if it were only possible to alter modplug tracker somehow to make it easier to detune all samples... hint, hint...
Just to make this test less biased, I'd also suggest to add f.e. a 448 hz, a 456hz and a 424hz Version. Just to go sure... :P Yes, I mean this seriously.
Quote from: "Jojo"Just to make this test less biased, I'd also suggest to add f.e. a 448 hz, a 456hz and a 424hz Version. Just to go sure... :P Yes, I mean this seriously.
It really depends on the easyness of detuning the samples. If this is a tedious task (as I'm fearing) I will not do that many detunings. But if I could either do a mass detuning on all samples, or set MPT to change the note frequencies assigned to C-4 and then just reset it to that note, then I could do them quite easilly.
Otherwise, It'll be a matter of getting each sample match the frequency by ear. I am planning on using certain instruments that unfortunatelly for me have 8+ samples.
Well, try to restrain the number of samples and use only samples which have the same tuning at the same playback frequency. The rest is just copy'n'pasting the same frequency to all samples. ;)
I'm not going to restrain myself for this song, just because I'm also going to provide a testcase here. I have this song planned for a week now, and already have the ideas in my head.
I've decided that it would be better to use an existing Chiptune for this experiment. I've altered Dreaming Onwards to fit the tunings and came to the conclusion that that song isn't even made in the 440hz range even.
I tracked it originally at 446hz, so I scaled it down first to 440hz, and then to 432hz. The difference is astonishing to me, and gives me enough proof to keep it like this.
The examples can be heard here: http://files.lpchip.com/temp/Dreaming%20Onwards%20diff%20tunings.7z
How did I tune the sounds?
I downloaded NCH Tone Generator (http://www.nch.com.au/action/tnsetup.exe) (website (http://www.world-voices.com/software/nchtone.html)), set it to play a 440hz note, then find the closest note to it and then tuned it to sound equally to the tone by the tonegenerator. The closer you come the more it starts to resonate until its equal.
I did this with all 5 square samples and saved the song with 440 in the filename. Then I repeated the same for 432hz. I was curious what the original was, so I loaded it in, and then tweaked the tonegenerator to match it which seemed to be 446.
I did some more testing, and it seems that VSTi's don't play exactly at 440hz either. They're slightly lower, at 437hz.
So this made me wondering. Maybe somehow the tuning is 3 hz off. So I also tuned the sampels to 429hz and added it to the package. The 429 and 432 versions sound nearly identical, yet the 432 sounds more powerfull to me.
I'd say, judge for yourself and take a notice what both the 440hz and 432hz one do to you. It convinces me to continue my work on 432hz.
From these examples the 440hz tuning sounded the best for me.
446 could pass, but as i've listened, i would sightly lower some notes to sound more "natural", but the 432 and specially 429 was quite off the tone, the sounds are way too low for me.
I can imagine that these tunings and their outcomes really depends on the songs. Other ones may sound better on different tunings than ~440.
Quote from: "psishock"From these examples the 440hz tuning sounded the best for me.
446 could pass, but as i've listened, i would sightly lower some notes to sound more "natural", but the 432 and specially 429 was quite off the tone, the sounds are way too low for me.
I can imagine that these tunings and their outcomes really depends on the songs. Other ones may sound better on different tunings than ~440.
Hmm, this is really weird. 440 tunings sounded pretty cold to me. I've got a quite negative feeling from it. The 432 tuning sounded alot more pleasant and warm, and made me feel happy.
EDIT: you did listened to each tune from beginning to end right? Not just compared short clips? Otherwise, you'll find 440 to be the most enjoyable because you don't know better.
not every *entire* song but almost, i did stopped around 1:30-2:00 on the rest because all of the sounds were introduced by that time (i've listened the first one 'till the end to know that). I can't compare anything if i don't have the full picture from them.
Then again, if this is true (we have found different tunings enjoyable), the whole thing is kinda personal, it depends on every person, maybe even on their mood perhaps?
EDIT: can you make more different tuned example tunes to help us compare? I would really like to see the results/effects on different stuff.
direct side-by-side listening is not really possible here. I listened to 432hz first on purpose, then the 429hz version, then 440hz. Every tune just sounded detuned when being switched fastly, and the general feeling didn't change for me at all.
Quote from: "psishock"EDIT: can you make more different tuned example tunes to help us compare? I would really like to see the results/effects on different stuff.
I guess I could... Its just a matter of tuning 5 samples to a frequency, which I guess anyone could do. You have the source files too now.
Just find the right octave and press the 7 key and compare it with the output of a tonegenerator and tune it against it.
'sokay LP, i've sounded lazy (because i am :D), but will try to compare the things the way you've described.
Quote from: "Jojo"direct side-by-side listening is not really possible here. Every tune just sounded detuned when being switched fastly, and the general feeling didn't change for me at all.
Well i've listened to it in order. 446,440,432,429 but the 440 was the most appealing to me still. After that, i've listened them in random order, just to find out, maybe my decision will change, but after some more listening, the 440 still sounded the best. (the general feel doesn't changed for me also on any variation, just found it more appealing to listen in this tuning)
you're doing it wrong anyway, you have to do a ABX blind test. everything else is _not_ a prove.
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according to the german wiki, there was only a suggestion by Verdi in the 19th century to use 432hz, but no other hints at 432hz being a standard that has been dropped.
The article that lead me to this can be found here:
http://niburu.nl/index.php?articleID=20092
Its in dutch however, so you'll need to translate it using bablefish or something.
I tried various tuning VST's but they don't do what you expect them to do. They only measure the tuning, not allow options to alter it.
If you know one that actually allows to alter the pitch, I'd be happy to try it out. :)
But wether this is valid or not, it doesn't change the fact that I personally want to make music on this frequency because I feel a difference and like the 432hz way better than the 440hz.
EDIT: http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=nl&u=http://niburu.nl/index.php%3FarticleID%3D20092&sl=nl&tl=en&swap=1
Quote from: "LPChip"If you know one that actually allows to alter the pitch, I'd be happy to try it out. :)
I tried the approach with Madshifta. It does alter the pitch and at idea level it seemed like a possible solution, but there were at least some sound quality problems so perhaps it's not a solution in practice.
Realtime tuning is cpu-heavy and it doesn't sound very good most times. If this was that easy, we would already have perfect time stretchers and pitch benders. That's why you have use VSTis that have a built-in detune option.
Here's a quote from kb (the guy who wrote the V2 synth):
Quote from: "url]http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=5329[/url]"](...) because a thing like "_in frequency spectrum_" doesn't exist. There are always frequency and phase, and those two are impossible to separate. Otherwise we'd have had perfect time stretchers, pitch shifters, instrument extractors, stereo-to-surround decoders for twenty years now. Which we don't have even now. At least not "perfect" ones. Because, as said, it's mathematically impossible to do such things.
I already had the feeling altering the pitch on the waveform would be impossible.
For now I'll settle with tuning my samples, and in addition I'll build me some VSTi's (or perhaps just one) that works the way I want it.
I already made a good plugin with SynthEdit before that I use in many many songs of mine. But I think about trying SynthMaker. :)
If 440 is the universal setting, why not track the music at 440, save it to .wav, and then detune the .wav down to 432? I can't imagine this will upset the harmonies....
Quote from: "LPChip"I already had the feeling altering the pitch on the waveform would be impossible.
Quote from: "Jojo"Realtime tuning is cpu-heavy and it doesn't sound very good most times.
Playing a sample with different pitch is rather basic feature in sound software(e.g. consider playing a sample with different note). Altering pitch without affecting the playback time is a different story, but that doesn't seem to be required if the option is to modify samples which changes the playback time. And there are players that time stretch in real time with quite acceptable quality(at least for many purposes), so without better knowledge I wouldn't rule out the possibility of even having a good enough time invariant pitch shifting in real time especially as the needed pitch shift range in this case is very small.
Anybody tried to make a digital Harmonizer as an application or in VST format ?