ModPlug Central

Let's face it: ModPlug Central went down the drain. Not only does the frontpage consist of little and partially outdated information - the really interesting bits are also scattered all over the internet (on xwiki, on lpchip's site, on my site, on sourceforge).
Plans are currently to re-unite all this, and make ModPlug Central a worthwhile place again.

However, we also need the help of the community for that, and not just for the content.
The current, yet unfinished plans are to move everything to a single server: The website, the forums, the wikis, SVN. Of course, this sets some requirements which not every service does meet. That's why I currently want to go for a typical vServer setup, a server where we can do what we want, so to speak. The costs for that would be slightly less than 100 euros per year, which is admittedly not that much for what we would get. However, neither do I want to pay this all on my own, nor any other project member.
This is one of the reasons why we ask you: How much is ModPlug Central worth to YOU? How many euros would you willing to donate (yearly, if possible) to keep this place alive, and to make it even better? It's likely that the new ModPlug Central won't survive without donations, but the site will be at least 100 times more awesome that it currently that is.
Remember: The more people donate, the less everyone has to pay!

This is not sure yet, but you might even get something in return (I mean more than just a honourable mention on the website and in the program) - maybe your own email address like yourname@openmpt.com? We'll see! :)

hmmm, if i manage to get a decent job in this crippled barbaric country, i can easily promise 20eu/year. Possibly even more, but no guaranty to that, coz its not easy to keep a job, even if you manage to get a hold of one, and giving uncertain promises is not really my style. =)

however, what ompt needs is a lot stronger community base, and making a "better" site may not help at all to archive that. :)

I am willing to pay 10-20 Euros, don't need more emailadresses but I wouldn't mind a contributer note. I can also help and work on the site.

One thing that I would not recommend is to move the sourcecode, sourceforge is a great place to keep the sources and it's reliable.

Btw, looks like Jeskola (the Buzz developer did something same recently):
http://buzzchurch.com/viewtopic.php?t=5124

Quote from: "Rakib"One thing that I would not recommend is to move the sourcecode, sourceforge is a great place to keep the sources and it's reliable.

One of the few advantages is of course that everything is nicely set up there, but running an own SVN or Git or whatever server is not much more work as well. And it doesn't set the same restrictions as we have them with SourceForge. The suite won't be built in one step, of course, so we'll se if it's worth moving the repository, and then it might eventually happen.

QuoteBtw, looks like Jeskola (the Buzz developer did something same recently):
http://buzzchurch.com/viewtopic.php?t=5124

And it even seems like he's paying about the same amount of money for the server. I kind of find the 2nd reply in that thread a bit weird, because that's how much you have to pay for a good server, and hey, it's 120$ a year, not 120$ a month!

I'll donate webspace but not money as I'm keeping my own site afloat w/o donations.

And I'll be happy to move the modplug archive to your site if you do get this up and want the control of the music archive.

Chris

Perhaps I should have also mentioned that webspace is not the issue (though it would probably still be a good idea to keep the archive on your server for now) - a configurable server with full control is. Some cron jobs will have to be run on the server every now and then, and shell access is required for mainting other parts of the site (f.e. the MediaWiki). And it must be possible to install and run additional software like SVN (and possibly PDF export for the wiki). I'd like the server to be under full control by the whole team, and not only by the person who pays for it. Unluckily, that is rather unlikely to happen if we rely on hosting from the community, because I'm rather sure noone of you wants to share their root account login credentials.

Isn't it just for uncloned to make a virtuell server?

at 100 euros a year - I'd think you'd be getting a shared sever - not a dedicated one.

And I think you are right about the root access. They have the address of the person who pays for the server - no matter who does it and which company you are hosted at.

And when you do get this running I definitely want to move the music archive to your site.

Quote from: "Rakib"Isn't it just for uncloned to make a virtuell server?

That would imply, though, that he has root control over a physical (non-virtual) server and can set up virtual machines.

Quoteat 100 euros a year - I'd think you'd be getting a shared sever - not a dedicated one.

It's in fact a virtual server.

We'll, I'd say go for it. Set up a paypal account.

I already gave you my vision, though I'll state it here.

I am for donating a fixed amount a year myself, but certainly in the beginning it will probably be not getting us to the max.

So I do not mind for the first 1 or 2 years, to be one of the backbones, to pay whatever is left to pay.

Do you perhaps have a website on what we'd get?

Another idea I was having: I doubt that we'll need all the stuff from this server. Perhaps we can rent server space or something like that to another community (last resort in case it seems that we won't make the costs)

Quote from: "LPChip"Another idea I was having: I doubt that we'll need all the stuff from this server. Perhaps we can rent server space or something like that to another community (last resort in case it seems that we won't make the costs)

As I'd definitely want to go for root access so that we can install any tools on the server we might need (as explained above), that would again imply that such a community would run on a dedicated server. However, I know where I can still look for a cheaper offer, but details on that will be announced once all my exams are over and I'm back from Evoke (no time to do it before that).

I'll give a hundred euro.

Definitely a worthy idea, especially if it will not take forever to implement. As far as I know you are still working on the new modplug )))

I would be willing to donate, especially if it is possible to do on a daily basis. Say, 5-10 euro a month. Multiply it by 12 and you got a nice sum. But donating a big sum right away - this I cannot do. I would be able to donate 20 euro as a one time donation, but I would suggest you keep the possibility to donate all year round.

I think we as a community can make all of this possible. Rxn has made a very generous offer.

As for getting something back, I wouldn't want an email, but I would like to be listed on a list of people who support the site financially. It sort of says a lot of one's dedication.

Quote from: "Louigi Verona"I would be willing to donate, especially if it is possible to do on a daily basis. Say, 5-10 euro a month. Multiply it by 12 and you got a nice sum. But donating a big sum right away - this I cannot do. I would be able to donate 20 euro as a one time donation, but I would suggest you keep the possibility to donate all year round.

Sure, of course we don't want to enfore anyone to donate large sums at once. I guess we could set up a paypal account (or use mine for the time being, and I will also donate the few euros that are left on it :D) and everyone can choose how much they want to donate at any time.

Quote
Definitely a worthy idea, especially if it will not take forever to implement.

At least the new website is almost done. I should have plenty of time in september and october to set up the rest.

So do you want the money or not? I can't send it without knowing your
credentials. I don't need any emails, credits on the website or whatever.

Be patient. :) I won't have much time for the new website until August 30th, and since I still look for (cheaper) alternatives, I don't know how much money we will need.

There is no point to set up a poll asking how much everyone would be ready
to donate without being ready to accept the donations.

You might catch the chance while I am here, I don't come about every day.

Quote from: "Rxn"There is no point to set up a poll asking how much everyone would be ready
to donate without being ready to accept the donations.

The point is that if everyone would vote for "no", we would already know that it's pointless to ask for donations and just keep everything as it is. The poll is just there to confirm how much money could be obtained this way. And currently it looks like we should set up a paypal account very soon. I wouldn't want to use my personal account for that.

Keep us posted on the progress. I will be glad to contribute when we have headway and have added my vote. ( I like the idea of an Email too :P)

I strongly suggest opening a paypal account for Modplug that is overseen by 2 or 3 key members for everyone's peace of mind. The money can only be used for benefiting OMPT.

Also as Rxn wrote, this way we can accumulate funds at the convenience of others. You never know what may happen between now and then to willing donaters.

In the worst case if we can't get it up and running, we can refund people.

Give Rxn your paypal account details and let the guy donate. Then use that money. Even if you do not need it now, take it for the sake of perspective. Donations don't come easily and if a person has the opportunity now, please use it.

Well if anyone wants to donate RIGHT NOW, you can use the PayPal link provided here (http://sagamusix.de/en/music/#license), although I'm not too happy about that solution.

Could you rather make a new english paypal account.

I have just fixed that issue... the PayPal button generator is totally weird. :P

I would donate too, just got to figure out how much euros are in NZ dollars first, anyway I may be new to it all but I am enjoying modplug and want to help too :D

Google this: nzd to euro

Cool thanks!

Its pretty much $2 gets you 1 euro.

I think it is safe to conclude: Modplug can live on our humble donations, which are not that humble after all! ;)

I must be poor! I think this site is one of the best. I feel i'm in a clique, and i rarely have problems accessing this site. I wouldn't say the site has gone downhill at all...

Myself, i would also like to donate maybe $20 a year, but i NEVER transfer money over the internet -- ESPECIALLY PayPal! If there is a way to send money by mail with a US postal money order in US$, let us know! :wink:

Quote from: "Harbinger"I wouldn't say the site has gone downhill at all...

Well, you probably didn't experience the site before the big crash then.

QuoteMyself, i would also like to donate maybe $20 a year, but i NEVER transfer money over the internet -- ESPECIALLY PayPal! If there is a way to send money by mail with a US postal money order in US$, let us know! :wink:

I have to say that sending money by mail is actually a couple of times more dangerous than sending it via PayPal or another online service - especially to Europe.

You're probably right, esp. for money going to Europe. But there's accountability. I can trace a USPS money order, stop it, stop its payment, and even insure it... I don't know who's running PayPal, and when it comes down to it, neither does 99% of their customers.

We need more general distrust of the internet...

Quote from: "Harbinger"You're probably right, esp. for money going to Europe. But there's accountability. I can trace a USPS money order, stop it, stop its payment, and even insure it... I don't know who's running PayPal, and when it comes down to it, neither does 99% of their customers.

PayPal is run by eBay. Do you know the USPS guys personally? And if no, why differentiate between PayPal and USPS _that_ way?

Make a paypal account, send the 20$ to the paypal account, from the paypal account you transfer to 20$ to JoJo's paypal account.

Quote from: "Jojo"
PayPal is run by eBay. Do you know the USPS guys personally? And if no, why differentiate between PayPal and USPS _that_ way?

I don't know any postmen, but i know they exist. If i send money, it's got to be somewhere! The USPS has an extensive tracing ability for their mail (at least if you register the envelope). They can determine who took the envelope from me, what truck it went on, who signed for it.
With PayPal, there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY. And with computer hacking as it is, i dare not enter my CC# in any field that links to the internet. If you trust virtual reality, be my guest...

Oh BTW, don't use eBay as your defense. Because of them and FilePlanet, i have to maintain a separate private email account. I have never dealt with a website more trouble than eBay.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather trust electronic transfer of money than the postal way; Money and other valuable things sent via (real life) mail tend to get stolen here often enough. On the other hand, I've never heard of money being stolen through a bank transfer, and PayPal does nothing more than bank transfers.

QuoteOh BTW, don't use eBay as your defense.

My point is that it's a fairly big and well-known company - if they were stealing people's money sent through PayPal transfers, they'd be gone pretty soon (the transaction fee is another thing, though...).

I don't want to argue the point, especially since you and i live under two different postal systems.  I get it -- you're just not as paranoid as i am. :P

I wouldn't accuse eBay of stealing, but their lack of security is the problem. But i get your point. I hope you got mine.. ::)

I'm pretty sure (no link or reference, sorry about that) the absolute majority of credit card frauds are caused by physical access to credit cards or skimming.

On another note, several banks issue "virtual" debit cards which means you can create a debit card virtually, and limit it to a certain time period and amount. The money is then deducted from your "real" credit/debit card.

So thanks to our generous donors, we are a couple of steps closer to the original goal: The forums, the german wiki (http://wikide.openmpt.org/Hauptseite) and the website (http://openmpt.org/) are already hosted on our own server. The english wiki, the download section and a bugtracker will hopefully follow very soon. There is also an icecast server ready for streaming the best of demoscene music (not as a permanent radio, though, there are already many good demoscene radios available; i rather think of some "radio shows" every now and then) and a tool for hosting compos (http://compo.openmpt.org/) (mostly written for the OHCs held on IRC, but it can be used for any kind of compo).
Big thanks again to our donors!

And we're at this certain point again. I have just paid another server bill and we're left with exactly 25 euro cents worth of donations. The next payment is due in exactly three months (the server is rented per quarter year), and I guess I should start asking for donations early since the amount of donations over the year has not been very great (exactly zero to be precise).

In retrospect over the last nine months, I can say that we have got a rather stable server for the (relatively) little money we pay, and everything (apart from some mostly minor hickups) has been running very smooth and trouble-free. There have been some outages, but hey, we're paying for 99.6% uptime per year (that's about 36 hours downtime per year), and not something like 99.99%. The work invested in moving the forum and the main site, as well as creating a bug tracker has been well worth it in my opinion, and I think most of you can agree with that. Now of course I'm quite behind my schedule (mostly due to me being busy at university), but all the other features left (wiki, download site) are still in progress and should go online this year. The only reason why there is no new English wiki yet is actually because our custom pattern viewer extension for MediaWiki does not work together with the PediaPress plugin for creating ODF/PDF exports of the wiki, and I'd like to see this functional before copying the manual over there and then realizing that it will look like crap when being printed to PDF because the pattern export is broken.

Hey Jojo,

-Can you send a short list, of what the costs have been for the year and what we're getting for them. By making it transparent, maybe someone can see if anyone knows of better deals.
-Where can I send my Paypal donation?

Thanks

The server costs are €23.97 per quarter (including a free domain which happens to be openmpt.org), plus there was a one-time €10 setup fee - for the last year, this is a total of €105.88. For the next years, the total running costs per year will be €95.88.
For information on how to donate, see the donation page (http://openmpt.org/donate).

Quote from: KrazyKatz on June 09, 2011, 16:23:29Can you send a short list, of what the costs have been for the year and what we're getting for them.

Basically you get everything that can be seen on openmpt.org - currently this is the main site, the forum, the German OpenMPT wiki, the bug tracker, the automatic update check and some in-development and planned stuff mentioned before (English wiki, download site, maybe also the code repository at some point).

Maybe add a donation button on the about window in modplug?

I used to have a website at http://www.webhostingpad.com/ (US) and there are very good prices. Maybe can be an alternative, the payment is low for a long term service. Check if it can be an alternative to host OpenMPT website.

I have my website hosted in the US and in the Netherlands. These give me a shared webhosting for 5$/m or less. If we wanted shared webhosting, we would've taken that, but we do prefer a dedicated server, so we can install things like our own SVN server.

Web hosting is not the same thing as a web server. Web hosting is basically: You have some webspace, maybe php and mysql, and you can upload files, and that's it. That's not enough for openmpt.org - we need f.e. shell access, and you don't get something like that from cheap web hosters - let alone full control over the server. The server this site is currently running on has everything we need. And shared webhosting is really bad for larger sites (which openmpt.org should eventually become again).

Fair enough needing a dedicated server. I was checking out dedicated server costs, and it looks like you actually have an incredible deal or am I bad at searching?
Did you guys search into the best deal, or get a special deal because you know someone, or is it possible to get cheaper?
In short how good is EU100 per year for the server type you have?

Dedicated servers, vServers and shared hosting a three completely different things. This website runs on a vServer. It's practically a virtual machine on a big machine, but with guaranteed resources and high performance. A dedicated system is pratically the same thing minus the virtual machine, but that's something we don't need, because our server can cope well enough with the amount of requests it gets. The Mod Archive runs on a dedicated server for example, and the costs for that are about seven times as much. And a shared host is, well, one shared system. 100 euros per year is pretty much a typical price for a vServer of this class.

Btw, thanks for donating!

Since some people that would be happy to help may not see this topic, I would suggest sending a PM to all members that their pledges are welcome in our time of need,
If you want I can write something up that sounds good.

No, no need for that. Thats called spam.

QuoteNo, no need for that.

There is a need. Otherwise, there would be no reason to suggest it.

QuoteThats called spam.

It's not an indiscriminate Mass Email, so it's really not SPAM. It's sent only to members that signed up, so it is quite reasonable that forum members would solicit such information. Especially since it pertains to the continuation of their own membership.

I thought about that before, but I would only want to do that in urgent cases - and at the moment, there is luckily no such case. As donations are now also enabled via sourceforge, we'll see if the donation situation improves until the next payment is due, and if it doesn't I might actually do as suggested.

We need a donation meter of some kind. It'll trigger people who want to donate to do so. Also a heroes list should be present to showcase who donated.

Does anyone have experience with the paypal APIs? I know that there 3rd party widgets for donation meters, but I think they are not free.

Quote from: LPChip on June 12, 2011, 14:13:41
Also a heroes list should be present to showcase who donated.

That does already exist on the donation page.

I see.

IMHO, the donation page should be promoted better. I had a hard time finding it. I would opt for a link in the menu bar on both the mainsite and the forum.

Is the donate button really that hard to spot? I mean, I can find it instantly, but that's because I know where I placed it...

Quote from: Jojo on June 12, 2011, 19:27:44
Is the donate button really that hard to spot? I mean, I can find it instantly, but that's because I know where I placed it...

Does the donation button link you to the donation page as well? I'm not concerned that people find the donation button, but by placing our donation heroes in a public spot, we encourage everyone to donate too. Its like a form of recognition. I'd love to visit the forum and see my name in the heroes list where everyone can see it, and I'm sure others find that appealing as well. Look for instance at www.slayradio.com they do that too, and it works wonders.

The donation button is damn hard to spot. I had to ask for it. I still don't know where it is otherwise. It should be in crystal clear view as you enter the Forum. And it should indeed encourage people just by seeing it.

I just checked and at 1024x768, even with various toolbars enabled, I was able to see the donation button without scrolling on the main page. The amount of people visiting the main site is a lot higher than the amount of people visiting the forum, so I don't know if it would make a lot of sense to put another donation button there as well.

Can you look into the statistics and see where people come to most when they search? I have a feeling they will come straight to the forum, and never even see the main site.

Here you have your statistics:

Quote from: Jojo on June 13, 2011, 14:33:31The amount of people visiting the main site is a lot higher than the amount of people visiting the forum

I imagine that most donators are from the Forums though and don't go to the main site. Put a Donate button on it.

Quote from: KrazyKatz on June 14, 2011, 01:58:10
Put a Donate button on it.

Better now?

Quote from: Jojo on June 14, 2011, 14:06:28

Quote from: KrazyKatz on June 14, 2011, 01:58:10
Put a Donate button on it.

Better now?

Yaaaay! You're the best Jojo!

Now I'm waiting for some donors... :P

Quote from: Jojo on June 14, 2011, 14:23:49
Now I'm waiting for some donors... :P

Lets see... I have 2 kidneys, 2 lungs... what bloodtype do you have?

Oh there it is :). Good stuff. On another note, what are your thoughts on putting a banner for someones website if they donate? Just to get some incentive going.

Alternatively, how's about a few choice adverts. I certainly don't want to overrun OMPT with adverts, but key adverts for Plugins and Musical stuff could be welcomed and could generate revenue with clicks.
I'm sure some big companies would not mind spending for them what is pennies to them to have a banner on the site for a few months. A Sponsor so to speak. One advert could cover the entire server cost.
If people are up to this, I'd be happy to write the Emails to a few choice companies.

Just brainstorming here, but why not? So what are your thoughts?

I honestly don't really like any kind of advertising. I always try to keep them to a minimum or avoid them if possible. If all else fails, we could look into it of course.

Well, there are three reasons why I'm against ads:
1) I don't like ads
2) It would get me into all kinds of legal trouble because technically I would be earning money using the website (I might have to register a business or something, and that's all kind of legal stuff I don't want to be confronted with)
3) Let's face it, who would want to advertise here? If the "big ones" deny the existence of our music creation software (http://forum.openmpt.org/index.php?topic=4221.msg36254#msg36254), do you really expect any of them to pay some bucks for having advertisments on the site? I say no. And that's also speaking from experience, because I know that the advertisments on The Mod Archive don't generate very much revenue, either.

I still like the idea of offering email addreses (@openmpt.org) to people who have donated.

Quote from: LPChip on June 15, 2011, 08:07:13If all else fails, we could look into it of course.

If all fails (which it currently doesn't), I'd rather pay for the server personally than putting ads on the site.

BTW, we have now collected enough donations to cover the cost for the next quarter, yay! A big thank you to all who have donated. So all upcoming donations will be saved for the 4rd  payment of 2011, which is due in december.

As soon as i can fit it into my budget, i intend to make a substantial donation, but i will not transfer money over the internet. Do you have a way to send donations via money order or some other hard-copy transaction? Is there an account maybe that a bank would be able to deposit into? (If the info you can give me must remain non-public, you can email me with the info. I shall practice discretion.)

Also, i must send US$, so what is the current rate of exchange? (...altho our president is doing his best to devalue our money!)

Whats wrong with internet transfer?
All my accounting is done by internet. My primary bank is a internet bank. they dont have any offices you can visit to.

I suppose I could accept donations via IBAN, but I also think that it might be better to finally set up a dedicated account for this first. I don't like to have money on my account which is technically not mine.

Quote from: Harbinger on June 16, 2011, 20:03:30
(...altho our president is doing his best to devalue our money!)

Off-topic (sorry..) but that's one of his goals.. indeed.  I'll just keep my mouth shut about the rest and of the string of puppets since Kennedy's assasination.. but anyone can contact me for more if desired. :)

Hey, I like that. It allowed me to buy Visual Assist X for what is a cheap 35 euros here. :P

Quote from: Jojo on June 17, 2011, 08:00:48
Hey, I like that.

So does most of the rest of the world..! [which equals a :( for me, and a :) for you perhaps..!]

Quote from: Jojo on June 16, 2011, 22:25:21
I suppose I could accept donations via IBAN....

Tell me more.

Quote from: Jojo on June 16, 2011, 22:25:21but I also think that it might be better to finally set up a dedicated account for this first.

That's all i can tell for now.

IBAN is the international bank account code for your bank + account number. It allows you to send money to a bank account.

I used this method to collect money for BVanOudshoorn's wedding gift.

Thanks to all our great donors, we now have almost gathered enough donations for the next three quarters. Thanks a lot to all donors for keeping ModPlug Central alive! Keep 'em coming! :)