The tempo is 250 and the speed is 1.
Portamento effects sounds best on Modplug tracker version 1.16.0203.
I am using 17castle.IT here.
.SPC -> .IT conversion.
You could at least have provided a problematic example file to demonstrate the problem, but here are the two most common portamento-related problems that can be encountered with some old modplug versions:
- Portamento has recently been fixed to work more like in Impulse Tracker, which can lead to tiny differences in pitch when doing fine slides.
- "Normal" Portamento (that is, not Fine or Extra Fine Portamento) is not applied at speed 1 at all, as it only affects non-row ticks by definition.
Apart from that, I cannot give any more hints since my crystal ball is broken as always.
Thanks for providing the file, but next time please actually post in the thread so that I can notice it. Normally I don't look at threads unless there are unread posts.
The file sounds broken in both MPT 1.16 and the latest OpenMPT, but that's simply because it's an inaccurate OpenSPC conversion. I'm afraid you will have to live with that fact. Better listen to the original SPC file anyway.
I wish OpenMPT version 1.24.04.00 to sound exactly the same as ModPlug Tracker version 1.16.0203.
Unless you can show that OpenMPT's behaviour is wrong (i.e. not identical to Impulse Tracker), that won't happen. Nobody forces you to listen to this file with the latest version of OpenMPT, though. Just render it to a wav file and listen to it in your favorite audio player. Or, as said, listen to the SPC file the way it's meant to be listened to.
OpenSPC was written when Impulse Tracker was still the standard, not ModPlug Tracker, hence if some SPC conversion sounds "better" (whatever that may mean) to you in MPT than it does in Impulse Tracker, this is by pure coincidence and not intentional.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 18, 2015, 15:15:27Just render it to a wav file and listen to it in your favorite audio player.
But Modplug Tracker version 1.16.0203 does not have this wave export feature:
Channel mode (one file per channel).
Then I'm afraid you will have to Solo the channels one by one and do 8 manual exports. Or, as said, listen to the original SPC file the way it's meant to sound. Why do you even insist on listening to the IT version? From what I can tell, it sounds off-key in some parts in both MPT 1.16 and OpenMPT.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 18, 2015, 17:10:19
Then I'm afraid you will have to Solo the channels one by one and do 8 manual exports.
But it automatically normalizes the volume on the exported wave file.
QuoteNormalize Output.
Can't be disabled in ModPlug Tracker version 1.16.0203.
Yes you can. You just have to untick the "Normalize Output" checkbox.
And I'm asking again, why on earth would you want to listen to the output of an SPC to IT conversion rather than the original SPC file? The IT version completely broken, no matter if you play it with MPT 1.16 or OpenMPT. I just compared it against the original SPC file from Super Mario World and sure enough, the IT file is detuned like hell in MPT.
If you really want to listen to this song, grab the SPCs from here (http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/spc.shtml) and download a proper SPC player.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 18, 2015, 18:36:46And download a proper SPC player.
Meridian advance.
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 18, 2015, 13:11:20
I wish OpenMPT version 1.24.04.00 to sound exactly the same as ModPlug Tracker version 1.16.0203.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 18, 2015, 15:15:27
Unless you can show that OpenMPT's behaviour is wrong (i.e. not identical to Impulse Tracker), that won't happen.
So OpenMPT will only sound like impulse tracker and not modplug tracker?
The old version of modplug tracker which dates back to 2002 is version 1.16.0203.
And i am correct that it does not sound like impulse tracker there because otherwise OpenMPT 1.24.04.00 would not sound any different.
And playing the 17castle.IT song in Winamp 5.04.
Patterns 24, 25 and 26 gets a vibrato effect while in modplug tracker version 1.16.0203
there is no vibrato in that section.
00:48 to 00:53 in winamp.
----------------------------------------------------
Patterns 20 to 26 sounds wrong in OpenMPT 1.24.04.00.
But sounds better on ModPlug Tracker version 1.16.0203.
I like the pitch modulations that happens in the second half of pattern 0.
Sound more fun to listen to in modplug tracker version 1.16.0203 than in OpenMPT 1.24.04.00.
Because portamento effects Exx and Fxx behaves differently between the old modplugtracker compared to the new modplugtracker.
And since winamp can play .IT files too and not only modplugtracker and OpenMPT.
It's now a part of the bandwagon too.
I wish OpenMPT to have a feature in where the user of the program can those which .IT file player to sound like.
Any program that plays .IT files will not sound like the other .IT file players.
OpenMPT should be able to mimic all of them.
Having a playback mode select list so that it sounds like that tracker or .IT file player
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44
The old version of modplug tracker which dates back to 2002 is version 1.16.0203.
And i am correct that it does not sound like impulse tracker there because otherwise OpenMPT 1.24.04.00 would not sound any different.
To be a bit more verbose, OpenMPT generally tries to be compatible with ModPlug Tracker's quirks as much as possible, however:
1) There are a few things which are just infeasible to stay compatible, such as the improved-accuracy portamento effects.
2) Even if this module was not affected by those infeasible compatibility attempts, OpenMPT will still try to play it like Impulse Tracker would and not like ModPlug Tracker would, because the module was saved with OpenSPC.
OpenMPT will generally only try to stay compatible with ModPlug Tracker if the original file was created with ModPlug Tracker. Otherwise, maximum Impulse Tracker compatibility is assumed.Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44And playing the 17castle.IT song in Winamp 5.04.
Winamp uses a playback engine that has not been updated in over 15 years and is thus completely out of discussion.
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44Patterns 20 to 26 sounds wrong in OpenMPT 1.24.04.00.
But sounds better on ModPlug Tracker version 1.16.0203.
I have said this several times now: These patterns sound both wrong in ModPlug Tracker and OpenMPT. They are completely off-key in both trackers, and do not sound like the original SPC file at all. This is due to the SPC to IT conversion being inaccurate. Why do you even try to argue about that?
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44Sound more fun to listen to in modplug tracker version 1.16.0203 than in OpenMPT 1.24.04.00.
For accurate playback it doesn't matter what sounds "more fun" to you.
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44Because portamento effects Exx and Fxx behaves differently between the old modplugtracker compared to the new modplugtracker.
Yes, there are slight differences as said before, however since the file wasn't created with ModPlug Tracker, there is not even a point in assuming ModPlug-compatible playback for this file.
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44And since winamp can play .IT files too and not only modplugtracker and OpenMPT.
It's now a part of the bandwagon too.
Also as said before, Winamp has a horrible and outdated mod playback plugin which I am not going to discuss about.
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44I wish OpenMPT to have a feature in where the user of the program can those which .IT file player to sound like.
If you want the sound of a certain program, then do use that program and not make my life hard. The only thing I will emulate are old ModPlug versions if appropriate and Impulse Tracker (for IT files). And certainly NOT Winamp.
Quote from: Jedinhopy on May 19, 2015, 16:38:44OpenMPT should be able to mimic all of them.
No. If that is your goal, please stop posting because it's not going to happen. If anything, I will emulate quirks of other
trackers (like Impulse Tracker), and not of other
players, since modules are not written in players. If a module sounds wrong in a player, the player needs to be fixed, not all other trackers.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 19, 2015, 19:27:271) There are a few things which are just infeasible to stay compatible, such as the improved-accuracy portamento effects.
This.
I have no idea what you want to tell me but it seems that you agree with me that it simply doesn't make sense to support these old ModPlug inaccuracies (or you didn't get what I was trying to say at all)
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 19, 2015, 22:01:15Doesn't make sense to support these old ModPlug inaccuracies.
So this is never going to happen?
No, I deliberately decided against keeping the old code here because it only makes a difference in some extreme edge cases. Like this one. Which, as I have said now multiple times before, is not even up for discussion because the module was not made with ModPlug Tracker, so ModPlug's inaccuracies have no place in this module in the first place.
End of discussion.
OpenMPT is louder than modplugtracker.
Yes, because you chose a different sample pre-amp volume in the mixer settings than you did in MPT 1.16. The joy of old ModPlug Tracker legacy settings.
My (The new MPT song.it) has portamento effects that sounds different in OpenMPT 1.24.04.00 than ModPlug Tracker version 1.16.0203.
I said End of discussion.
It's still an SPC to IT conversion at the core, no matter if you resaved it in MPT or not.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 20, 2015, 22:30:14
I said End of discussion.
It's still an SPC to IT conversion at the core, no matter if you resaved it in MPT or not.
So now i can't copy and paste super mario world instruments properly the way i want thanks to you because i can't start creating a new modplug tracker song because it will not retain it's portamento characteristics between Modplug Tracker version 1.16.0203 and OpenMPT 1.24.04.00.
And since the super mario world instruments relies heavily on pattern data at a tempo of 250 with speed 1. The vibrato portmanto pitchbend effects is only available in the pattern rows so OpenMPT does not play them like the classic modplug tracker program.
Combining both old modplug tracker portamento behaviors with that portamento interpretations of OpenMPT.
THANK YOU for not implementing old modplug tracker portamento behaviours. :angry-smile: :sad-smile: :disappointed-smile:
Failed discussion.
Let me restate the whole debate from a somewhat different angle and hopefully clear up some misunderstandings.
Let me list some of the facts first:
- OpenSPC is really old software. The version i spotted from a quick search is from about 1999. There are some newer variants around also. I cannot judge their relevance though.
- OpenSPC can generate IT files.
- In 1999, there was exactly 1 authorative source on how to correctly play IT files, namely the way Impulse Tracker itself actually played them.
- For plain IT files in general (unless made with one of the other major IT ttrackers available nowadays), Impulse Tracker is still the only valid reference playback engine.
- MPT 1.16 played things differently and inaccurately, in certain corner cases.
- These corner cases are not excercised by IT files made with MPT 1.16 in any significant number of files available in the wild to warrant keeping playback compatibility.
- OpenMPT has since been fixed to correctly mimic Impulse Trackers behaviour, because the previous behaviour of OpenMPT had acutally been a bug which had just existed for way too long time.
So, iff OpenSPC actually relied on the way MPT 1.16 played back portamento in IT files (I'm not sure whether it does or whether it in fact assumes Impulse Tracker behaviour), this would have been a bug in OpenSPC from the start.
Thus, if you really want to get this working again for you, I suggest finding someone who maintains or wants to maintain OpenSPC and actually fix their assumptions on how portamento works in IT files.
Some further remarks:
OpenMPT in fact does mimic a lot of strange playback bugs and other problems to be compatible with the playback engines of the older trackers, at least the significant ones. However, as far as I understand, any SPC to IT conversion would be greatly lossy with regards to pitch precision and other problems anyway, thus, there is really little use in trying to mimic the exact portamento behaviour that had been possibly be assumed by OpenSPC.
The only relevant point with regards to how OpenMPT plays back any specific IT file generated with OpenSPC is, how great old Impulse Tracker actually plays it.
If we would keep all assumptions valid that any old conversion software could have possibly been making on how to play back IT files, this would completely prohibit any playback related bug fixing and progress in OpenMPT. Keeping all kinds of different playback modes around would increase the maintanance burden. Handling all the formats OpenMPT and libopenmpt actually can handle is already really complicated even without even more compatibility modes. Whether some specific feature/bug warrants a compatibility mode is always a tradeoff between the amount of code required and how widespread the specific feature/bug is actually used in the wild. It's just not feasable in each and every case.
As already noted by Saga Musix, a compatibilty mode for OpenSPC is out of question anyway as OpenSPC should actually have assumed Impulse Tracker behaviour in the first place and would then be handled just fine with OpenMPT's default Impulse Tracker style playback mode.
I'm sorry that this change causes trouble for you, but, as outlined, the problem does not lie in the change in OpenMPT itself, but possibly in the assumptions some ancient software made.
Quote from: manx on May 21, 2015, 17:34:02OpenMPT has since been fixed to correctly mimic Impulse Trackers behaviour, because the previous behaviour of OpenMPT had acutally been a bug which had just existed for way too long time.
Which version of OpenMPT lost old modplug tracker portamento behavior?
1.24 was the first with the correct behaviour, but you will do yourself and everyone else a favor if you don't cling to the old behaviour. The problem here is that extra-fine slides up and down (EEx / FEx commands) are not symmetric (i.e. EEF followed by FEF will not go back precisely to the original note), however the asymmetry is the wrong way around in the old MPT. Since OpenSPC most likely didn't even consider this inaccuracy, notes in OpenSPC conversions will typically diverge after a lot of portamento effects, and in MPT 1.16 they will diverge into the opposite direction than in OpenMPT or any other player.
QuoteSo now i can't copy and paste super mario world instruments properly
Err, portamento has nothing to do with instruments? You can copy the samples just like before and use them in your own songs and remixes. The patterns output by OpenSPC are not really suitable for anything but listening to a (bad) SPC conversion anyway, no sane human being would try make a remix based on those patterns and write music at such insane tempos (except for Venetian Snares I guess). If you want to make your own remixes of this song, you can easily do it at a lower tempo and by using actual vibrato (Hxx) commands instead of OpenSPC's insanely fast Exx/Fxx effect combinations. I still don't see your problem.
Quote from: Saga Musix on May 21, 2015, 18:39:41QuoteSo now i can't copy and paste super mario world instruments properly
Err, portamento has nothing to do with instruments? You can copy the samples just like before and use them in your own songs and remixes. The patterns output by OpenSPC are not really suitable for anything but listening to a (bad) SPC conversion anyway, no sane human being would try make a remix based on those patterns and write music at such insane tempos (except for Venetian Snares I guess). If you want to make your own remixes of this song, you can easily do it at a lower tempo and by using actual vibrato (Hxx) commands instead of OpenSPC's insanely fast Exx/Fxx effect combinations. I still don't see your problem.
I mean that one single waveform sample is using multiple envelopes in a multiple channels at the same time to create ADSR effects on volumes and pitches and panning + using these instrument articulation effects:
1. Tremolos.
2. Fade ins.
3. Fade outs.
4. Pannings.
5. Pitchbends.
6. Vibratos.
7. Glidings.
8. Delays / Echoes.
9. Chorus.
None of these can be converted into a .XI file because some of them use more than one channel to create chorus effects and so on like delay effects that require 2 channels or more.
None of them depend on the insane pattern speed used by OpenSPC and can easily be replicated at lower speeds. And certainly none of them depend on MPT's buggy portamento interpretation. You do not require this bug to be emulated for writing remixes. Unless you copy the original pattern data and are too lazy to fix the detuned parts (which, as already pointed out in my first post, is detuned compared to the original in both playback modes anyway), in which case it can hardly be called a remix.
Anyway, I am tired of reiterating the same facts again and again. Case closed.
You can be happy, as OpenMPT is in need of more fine-grained legacy playback settings (http://bugs.openmpt.org/view.php?id=715), OpenMPT 1.26 will most likely be able to use the "old" portamento code independently of all other IT compatbility settings.