As of now you can see, when your volume levels go into the red, but you don't have an indicator to point out if its clipping or not.
Indeed, that would be a nice idea!
Are you talking about the VU-meters of the General Tab, or the ones of the Pattern Tab ?
I guess the ones on the genereal tabs, because the VU-meters on the pattern tab show you *nothing*, really. They don't even show you how loud your sample is. I enabled the, though, coz so i know which channels are playing :D
Jojo answered your Question Mr. Zen.
Which leads me to bring an update to this Feature request - a clip indicator on the pattern page.
Perhaps a bit out of topic but why not add scopes to the channels. This is one of the few things that I really miss from ProTracker. It was actually quite usefull.
Also it can perhaps be a idea to add a stereo-scope for to show both left and right channels summarized if possible.
What I have suggested before is to add a "faded" view of a waveform behind the notes in the editor ;) ... that would be hypercool because you can see the final rendering of the sound. Also it can be usefull.
Ok I realize that I was terrible off topic here... :) Perhaps we should make a summary of these requests since they are all related somehow I think.
2 Waxhead
The common factor is maybe the representation of volume levels, but scopes is off-topic indeed. Let's keep it simple, the subject is a clip-indicator. A flashing led (or two probably).
2 KrazyKatz
You mean a 'central' indicator on the pattern page, or a clip-indicator in each channel ?
2 Sam Zen: Central indicator on the pattern page.
Doesn't need to be special... just a sign to show that clipping has occurred. I dont think we need VU meters on the pattern page. But a clip indicator, such a "C" that goes red when clipping occurs on the pattern page could prove useful.
I support that.
I never did activate those channel VU-meters to be honest. Although I don't agree with Jojo, that they tell nothing.
Ok, 4 green leds, one yellow and one red. Quite a smaller resolution than the volume bars on the General page.
But with panorama indication. And as Jojo says, they tell something's going on.
Maybe the red one could be programmed to be the clip-indicator.
yeah, totally forgot about the panorama ;) that's also why i enabled them - to show where and if a channel is playing ^^
on the pattern page? id expect it to be on the general tab, where the main vu meter is, and where the channel volume settings are...
You're right. Even with no single channel clipping, it doesn't guarantee no clipping at the main output. So the General page has priority here, but it doesn't have to be an 'or', it can also be implemented on the Pattern page as well. :)
OT
I'm starting to get the impression that there are differences among the authors in the use of MPT, regarding their 'base tab' while they are working. One group with the General page, another group with mainly the Pattern page in front.
*bump* any chance that this could be implemented?
Quote from: "Jojo"*bump* any chance that this could be implemented?
Hopefully. At least I won't claim this feature request since the top of my todo-list is crowded with other things.
There are many free FFT spectrum analyzer VST-s that will do the job perfectly allready. Every instrument or plugin can be linked to them (put it in the FX100 slot and link every instrument or plugin to them, or just apply "master" in mix settings) so they will always measure db (plus the frequency range) even if only one channel is enabled or all of them at a moment.
Clipping, frequency ranges, db, volume changes and all the similar things can be monitored with one splendid VST.
sorry, but just adding a FFT VST for a rather essential feature is not a good solution imo.
I agree
For FFT i meant what i've used on my cases, i mostly like to monitor as much as i can. I'm sure that there are many simple VU meter VSTs with clip indicators, or any similar ones with less or more features. Finding one that suit your problem shouldn't be much trouble.
Why am i suggesting so recklessly the VSTs on this case?
- mostly the VSTs are already made and working perfectly. (no need to mess with new code/debug and stuff)
- they are most likely more flexible because of the plugin system and tweakable than a hardcoded gui extension in "general tab" example.
- VSTs are "allways on top", you can be on general, instrument, pattern, or any other desired tab, and still will able to monitor/tweak it.
- VST gui can be moved anywhere the user wants it.
- from a number of VSTs, people can more easy locate the one that suits them best (features and functionality example)
(please don't feel that i'm disregarding your idea, i'm just telling my thought and ideas about it, and (as always) trying to help with the best solution for the problem)
I'm not disregarding anything. The existence of plugins with an application is a very efficient situation.
This is valid for tools with effects, making sounds, but also for monitoring things, if needed.
Quote from: "psishock"For FFT i meant what i've used on my cases, i mostly like to monitor as much as i can. I'm sure that there are many simple VU meter VSTs with clip indicators, or any similar ones with less or more features.
this is not my point. my point is that something tiny but also essential should be built into mpt. i don't want to rely on VSTs which i have to download first and load into MPT everytime i start a module just to see if there's room for more volume or not.
I agree - a clip indicator should be standard. And it should either be on the Patterns tab or in the toolbar. Perhaps we could have a small, sideways VU and clip indicator on the toolbar? That'd be nice and unobtrusive.
I can totally undestand your point Jojo. It most definetely won't hurt to have one, especially for those who don't wana get involved with plugins.
Quotei don't want to rely on VSTs which i have to download first and load into MPT everytime i start a module just to see if there's room for more volume or not.
When you start a new module, you also load your samples/instruments first, or VSTis, and you search for new ones, from time to time, on the internet or any other source.
Setting up and customising your "virtual studio" (wich normally should take a few seconds to a minute max) when you start composing should not be a burden for anybody imo, nor gathering the most comfortable tools for work.
I've grown to like VST plugin idea more than the embed OMPT extensions (for several reasons), so to me, it won't mean much difference, propably will leave that unused too.
Also, i wana have my working space clean as possible, having tools, skins all the times in front of my eyes that i don't or won't need will not please me. =) Now, i'm not saying that this practicular VU meter and clipping indicator feature would make me discomfortable, but more similar gui extensions that i won't necessarily use, most likely will.
I've mainly choosed OMPT because it has the most cleaner and faster working arrea (pattern tab to be specific, it's perfect to work with, it's also very flexible), got a VST support and i could customise my keyboard keys for the most fastest and comfortable work.
I like it this way, when it's like Firefox, got a minimal gui with nice customisation system, and there are tousands of powefull plugins for any additional personal needs, that you can handpick. (i use Opera, but thats really another subject :wink: )
QuoteWhen you start a new module, you also load your samples/instruments first, or VSTis, and you search for new ones, from time to time, on the internet or any other source. [...]
well, we had a talk about "template modules" here already... That may come in handy as well.
"template modules"? means that i don't have to set up the general song or pattern properties, load my custom VST(i)s when i dont feel like to, and similar?
-nods- that would be really handy indeed.
yep, have a look here: http://forum.openmpt.org/index.php?topic=2097.0
I can now submit modifications to modplug's development files, so I will maybe try to add the peak function...
For the moment I don't understand all the source code, so I will see if I can do that
#define CLIP_SOUND(v) v = v < -1.0f ? -1.0f : v > 1.0f ? 1.0f : v
i found this macro in the sourcecode (ctrl_smp.cpp). is that the key to the clip indicator...? :lol:
I would say so. The equasion either gives a -1 or a 1. But then again, maybe its to round sound when you amplify it.
EDIT: now I'm sure. This isn't the clip indicator. Its to make sure that the value stays between -1 and 1 volts.
WHAT? :nuts:
QuoteThe equasion either gives a -1 or a 1
wrong. it's a ternary "if" statement.
- IF v < -1 THEN set it to -1
- IF v > +1 THEN set it to +1
That's because the sounds is handled as float values which may not exceed the range from -1 to +1.
QuoteIts to make sure that the value stays between -1 and 1 volts.
what the hell are you talking about? :nuts: volts in mpt? :P
Since audio programming works with Volts, I suspect the audio flow, designated with a v is ment for Volts.
My EDIT actually was referring to the fact that I was correcting myself, so the first part is indeed wrong, but I mentioned that myself.
What I say that the function does is checking if its outside of the boundaries -1 to 1. If so, it sets the boundary, if not, it sets v.
If it would be a clip indicator switch as you're asking, it wouldn't need -1 to 1 range, but only a simple boolean.
So then what would it be usefull for? If you, in the sample editor have a waveform and you would say... amplify it by 1000% you will be ensured of clipping. It will first do the amplification, but then cut off everything thats outside the -1 to 1 range.
Happy?
Oh and: Don't do Drugs. Drugs'r bad.
QuoteIf it would be a clip indicator switch as you're asking, it wouldn't need -1 to 1 range, but only a simple boolean.
I didn't say it _is_ the clip indicator. But it remedies clipping and that's what's necessary to program a clip indicator. The macros is only used in the pitch shifter though, so it's actually of no use.
And we aren't talking about volts here. Using float values between -1 and +1 for audio processing has been quite common for more than a decade now. ;P
Yes, but the v could be volts.
.... :P
actually, clipping removal seems to be done in asm functions and i don't really know asm, so... well... :?
Oh, just push AH over there, and see if that interupts 21 :P
Quote from: "psishock"There are many free FFT spectrum analyzer VST-s that will do the job perfectly allready. Every instrument or plugin can be linked to them (put it in the FX100 slot and link every instrument or plugin to them, or just apply "master" in mix settings) so they will always measure db (plus the frequency range) even if only one channel is enabled or all of them at a moment.
Clipping, frequency ranges, db, volume changes and all the similar things can be monitored with one splendid VST.
the same for me, I had some vsts which do a perfect job there.
Quote from: "le_parasite"the same for me, I had some vsts which do a perfect job there.
:gjob: i didn't wanted to pollute more this topic with my opinions, but as i've said, simple free stereo vu-meter plugin with indicator would solve the problem, perhaps more efficiently that any future implemented ompt method, and it will also stay on top, no matter what tab do you open. ::) Plugin support is a huge improvement in ompt lifeline, i advise everyone to use that feature. :)
Its like Firefox or XMplay... or Total Commander, they are fine and working without it, but the juice is coming with the plugins. :lol:
Well, perhaps what we *really* want, then, is the ability to have GLOBAL plugins, that are applied to EVERY song. We could then remove the EQ and other effects in the system, and always have nice VUs/Spectrum Analysers/EQs to play with. Hidden by default, accessible from the toolbar.
Quote from: "bvanoudtshoorn"Well, perhaps what we *really* want, then, is the ability to have GLOBAL plugins, that are applied to EVERY song. We could then remove the EQ and other effects in the system, and always have nice VUs/Spectrum Analysers/EQs to play with. Hidden by default, accessible from the toolbar.
That hit the spot, sounds very promising! I could live with something like these.
I couldn't :P
But the reason is very simple. If you add effects support like these as a client-side only feature, people might start adding plugins at the wrong side of their song making it harder to troubleshoot. The same thing, I already see happening with the 5 band EQ that is present already. People actually tweak that for their song and then start complaining that they loose that setting when saving the song as in: its not loaded back when loading a song.
For me: the less settings you can tweak on the client-side, the more you are forced to do it for the song, thus the less problem sensitive it becomes. Only thing I would use a better buildin EQ for, is to compensate the bad quality of certain soundcards by boosting the frequencies on my laptop that my high-end pc has so I can match the same sound. Other than that, the less you can tweak client-side, the less your song will be dependend on it.
Another example of this is what used to be the pre-amp value. Not only was it yet another volume button, it actually was one on the client-side, which got alot of commotion just because of that.
So I would suggest: Replace the EQ for a better one, add a checkbox that says: enable, and disable it by default. When you then enable it, toggle a message that says the following:
"Warning: this setting is client-side only and it doesn't get saved whitin a song. Therefor, other people won't hear the tweaking you do with this EQ. Its recommended to use a plugin EQ on your song and check the master if you want others to hear the EQ changes when they listen to your song. Ontop of that, this setting is global, meaning that it will be the same for each song. Use this setting only to compensate for missing frequencies by your soundcard. Do you still wish to enable the EQ? [Yes] [No]"
i could add such a messagebox. or rather, add it as a notice below the EQ area.
(http://sagagames.de/ithumb/thumbs/eq_hint5563gl30.jpg) (http://sagagames.de/ithumb/show/eq_hint5563gl30.png)
:lol:
Yeah :) Very good. Now if that EQ had more bands... :nuts:
it's enough bands for compensating. :P
I disagree. 3 more would work wonders. 2 on the lowest band and 1 on the end.
Um, I don't want to sound like a pedant, but if this is going to go through, perhaps we should clean up the grammar and syntax a little bit, and perhaps make it a little bit more... illuminating. :) Something like:
"Warning: This EQ is applied to any and all of the modules that you load in OpenMPT; its settings are stored globally, rather than in each file. This means that you should avoid using it as part of your production process, and instead only use it to correct deficiencies in your audio hardware."
Hmm, that reminds me... I've been meaning to go through everything in OpenMPT and give them a quick dust with my editorial brush. :)
sorry, your text is too long. :P I guess there's a 256 char limit in resource files or something like that... but it works if i set it directly from the sourcecode, so that's no problem.
it'd make more sense to completely remove the built-in EQ (and AGC, and noise reduction, and bass expansion, and user-selectable reverb/surround)
i wouldn't go that far. there are some #defines in the code which can disable certain features. but some tracks do sound better with some of the options being enabled (i always have surround on, for example, and it sounds a lot better)... but yeah, AGC sucks.
I always have it off, because if you enable some of it, it will enhance the wrong way. I'd rather do surround or reverb or whatever using a plugin on the master channel.
I vote for a complete removal :P
And I vote against it! :nuts: Listening to old mods with surround on makes them a lot more enjoyable. XMPlay has autogain/reverb/surround, too! :nuts:
there is really no need for complete removal, the user choice is the best option. This way if someone want to listen to songs with these extra settings, it won't be a problem, and "us" who don't, just will keep those checkboxes white.
Hm. Fastmix.cpp has some nice sample converting functions like X86_Convert32To32 that have clipping prevention. This could be used to switch a flag for the sample clip indicator.
4 pages of useless talk later... I have something in the works. Might still take a while to implement (certainly won't make it into the next release).
Toolbar VU meters with clip indicator!
(http://sagagames.de/ithumb/show/vu4620oj56.png)
yes!!
it's christmas almost every day with you jojo!
thanks 8)
Oh this is awesome! Me wants, me wants!!!! :D
I don't love you Jojo, but thats only because you're male and I am too. :P
Revision 1773 adds a VU meter with clip indicator to the main toolbar. http://sagagames.de/stuff/mptrack.exe
rapid tests.
perfect.