ModPlug Central

The new site will ofcource allow you to submit music.

People ofcource have found that the community changed too much due to the fact that people submit too much songs in MP3 format. The good old "peak to learn" method is usually not possible on the better songs anymore.

To counteract this, I've though about the following.

You may only have equally or less MP3's on MODPlug as you have modules. It will be possible to submit a song as MP3 and also give a second link to the source module. Doing so will give a point for the module, but not for the mp3. (the mp3 is bonus here)

So: if you submit a song that has both a module and an mp3, you're allowed to submit a song as MP3 only.

Do you agree that this should be there? (and don't give me a no because you intend to only submit mp3!)

The poll will last for 14 days. please vote before then.

I said I agree, because looking at mod source is how I got started, and I always felt bad that new people had to go without that, since everything is mp3 now a days

yah, i totally agree. except i think it should maybe even be more strict. where  if you submit a mod, THEN you can submit the mp3 version... as a bonus.

and i'm probably the dood that would submit just the mp3. so i guess i'm saying, don't let guys like me get away with it.

I voted no. Even you, LPChip, said here:

Quote from: "LPChip"If I make a chiptune, I'll always give the source, unless it was made using VSTi's. I also take into account if the mastered MP3 version sounds better or not. If i can make a better sounding MP3 while the source song is really small, I'd probably share both. Usually my big songs end up with 15~25mb each with commercial VST's attached to them. Giving the source here is just impossible.

"Giving the source here  is just impossible."

The source to all of my songs is at least  10-20+mb. Many people, like myself, are still using dial-up. It takes long enough to upload an mp3, let alone my source. This would mean, many of us couldn't share our music at all.

Quote from: "victimofconspiracy"I voted no. Even you, LPChip, said here:

Quote from: "LPChip"If I make a chiptune, I'll always give the source, unless it was made using VSTi's. I also take into account if the mastered MP3 version sounds better or not. If i can make a better sounding MP3 while the source song is really small, I'd probably share both. Usually my big songs end up with 15~25mb each with commercial VST's attached to them. Giving the source here is just impossible.

"Giving the source here  is just impossible."

The source to all of my songs is at least  10-20+mb. Many people, like myself, are still using dial-up. It takes long enough to upload an mp3, let alone my source. This would mean, many of us couldn't share our music at all.

Im sure it would be possible to make a selection of your songs and use techniques to make it very small to submit. There are always compo's and co-ops which will require modules only. they can be submitted too. You can even submit the mp3 version which is HQ, and put in your remarks that you'd rather have them to listen to the mp3 version and give feedback upon it.

Quote from: "shableep"yah, i totally agree. except i think it should maybe even be more strict. where  if you submit a mod, THEN you can submit the mp3 version... as a bonus.

and i'm probably the dood that would submit just the mp3. so i guess i'm saying, don't let guys like me get away with it.

Nah, Sometimes its just impossible to release the source. Therefore: for every mp3, you need to have atleast one module too, where combo's are seen as modules.

though i am not that fanatic i am just asking (well, i little bit late and maybe old-fashioned at all)
why allowing mp3 at all...
i am wondering since years: is it just because someone's afraid that his/her samples are ripped off and their ideas stolen? or are they afraid of transparency?

definitly pro modules!

Quote from: "cyperkid"though i am not that fanatic i am just asking (well, i little bit late and maybe old-fashioned at all)
why allowing mp3 at all...
i am wondering since years: is it just because someone's afraid that his/her samples are ripped off and their ideas stolen? or are they afraid of transparency?

definitly pro modules!

Like me, some people are mixing/mastering their songs. This creates a song with high quality. Next, when I'm tracking in special genres, I'm easilly get a simple module up to 15~25 mb. This is so huge, that I can't put it on the net. The mp3 file is alot smaller, which gets my preference.

Quote from: "LPChip"
Like me, some people are mixing/mastering their songs. This creates a song with high quality. Next, when I'm tracking in special genres, I'm easilly get a simple module up to 15~25 mb. This is so huge, that I can't put it on the net. The mp3 file is alot smaller, which gets my preference.

of course  :wink:
same here.
at least my xm-files mostly would be smaller than mp3s.

Quote from: "cyperkid"though i am not that fanatic i am just asking (well, i little bit late and maybe old-fashioned at all)
why allowing mp3 at all...
i am wondering since years: is it just because someone's afraid that his/her samples are ripped off and their ideas stolen? or are they afraid of transparency?

Several reasons:

File Size: Many new tracks can be well above 10MB.

Sound Quality: Releasing in MP3/OGG allows for mastering of the track.

Playback Consistency: No extra VSTis or VSTs needed for the song to play back as the artist intended.

There is nothing that prevents artists from tracking "old skool" with just samples, and trying to keep the file size as small as possible.  There is still an art in that, but at the same time, there should be nothing preventing artists who want their songs to sound as good as they can be either.

ill have to vote a no, unless mpt's new format allows vsts to be included in the song...
it might be a good idea in theory, but i see several problems with it:

1) i have no problem with distributing my 'sources', but the issues of included vsts and huge samples (and dialup...) prevent me from sharing the sources to most of my songs, and i think this is the case with a lot of people here.
2) if we started restricting mp3s, i think our site traffic, and number of artists would drop dramatically, not only because of #1, but also because a lot of people nowdays are LOOKING for mp3s when they look for free music.
3) there are already sites that cater to the module files only niche (ie, modarchive).
4) i think that mpc should match the spirit and abilities of mpt, and mpt is a 'modern' tracker that has great emphasis on vsts (and growing all the time with the new versions).

that being said, i have no problem with 'emphasising' module only composing... like if mpc hosts songs, only modules would be hosted, or maybe some form of preference would be given to module releases in the rating system.  but i dont think its a good idea to restrict the community in such a way as this...

another possibility might be to have two sections to the site, the standard music section, and an 'open source' section.

i will hold off on voting for now however, until i hear some more arguments on both sides.

Mp32Ogg in the first place..
This is about filesizes on the MPT-server, so about efficiency of reproduction.
I would say that the priority here is the other way around :
Upload only the basic modules in tracker-format and, if needed, add a link there to your own website to a compressed audio-version.

I wonder if it could be possible that every song has a double link, one for the ready-to-be-heard version (mp3 or ogg) and another for the source, more or less deprived of its samples and with references to the VSTs needed, to make it of a reasonable size and yet useful to learn how it was made.

Quote from: "rncekel"I wonder if it could be possible that every song has a double link, one for the ready-to-be-heard version (mp3 or ogg) and another for the source, more or less deprived of its samples and with references to the VSTs needed, to make it of a reasonable size and yet useful to learn how it was made.

Yeah, this has been planned to happen.

In fact, I've been thinking in allowing several links for streamed music so you can allow a HQ version 129 bitrate and higher or LQ version 128 bitrate and lower. This way you can search for HQ music only etc.

Quote from: "Snu"ill have to vote a no, unless mpt's new format allows vsts to be included in the song...
it might be a good idea in theory, but i see several problems with it:

1) i have no problem with distributing my 'sources', but the issues of included vsts and huge samples (and dialup...) prevent me from sharing the sources to most of my songs, and i think this is the case with a lot of people here.
2) if we started restricting mp3s, i think our site traffic, and number of artists would drop dramatically, not only because of #1, but also because a lot of people nowdays are LOOKING for mp3s when they look for free music.
3) there are already sites that cater to the module files only niche (ie, modarchive).
4) i think that mpc should match the spirit and abilities of mpt, and mpt is a 'modern' tracker that has great emphasis on vsts (and growing all the time with the new versions).

that being said, i have no problem with 'emphasising' module only composing... like if mpc hosts songs, only modules would be hosted, or maybe some form of preference would be given to module releases in the rating system.  but i dont think its a good idea to restrict the community in such a way as this...

another possibility might be to have two sections to the site, the standard music section, and an 'open source' section.

i will hold off on voting for now however, until i hear some more arguments on both sides.

As long as the VST (i)'s are not commercial, its okay. Perhaps a link (or more) to the VST(i) source files is a good idea. Note that the new MPT will allow you to search KVRAudio for missing plugins. ;)

the two araising problems/arguments (including vst, file-size) are definitly PRO mp3, but apart from the open source-character and the community-feeling (about which i care most, but definitly not the majority of musicians outthere) - exaggerated: what would be the use of uploading stone-aged and un-handy modules then at all?

if this forum/scene is meant to be a platform for a certain philosophy, it's not wrong to have some little rules to keep it together (definitly not to keep it pure or crap alike)

the idea about a file-size-limitation firstly came into my mind.
the original module being less than 5 MB = give'em the module, if it's bigger = shrink it into mp3. but then i found it useless (and odd too) as it would mean that the amount of linked mp3s will be still larger than modules (as we figured out: most modules nowaday aren't less than that anymore)

don't have other ideas so far

Perhaps we can promote the people that DO submit more modules than MP3, but still again. I'd rather not allow having more mp3's than modules because people will get too greedy and submit the mp3 out of ease.

I'm also seeing people answer with no because I know they don't use a tracker anymore, and fear they can't submit their music. Am I wrong? Be honest!!! (those who do know who they are)

Will MPC host submitted songs?

Quote from: "speed-goddamn-focus"Will MPC host submitted songs?

That question is not yet certain. MisterX told me he made some kind of deal to do so, but this is speculation. If he indeed did, he'll make it public. I don't know the details about this. If we indeed are going to have a system like this, there is a fair chance that the modules will have a size limitation. Eg: only songs that are smaller than 1 mb will be able to get hosted. If above, url is necessary.

I voted no, I don't agree. Either make it free or make it mod only is my opinion. Making it mod only would eclude those using a tracker as one tool of many, like making loops for other pieces of software. Then again, I guess there will be no limitations in the spam forum...

No solutions, just some thoughts.
For the provider of a server the space on the HD for the file is not a problem. It's data-traffic that matters.
If a complete song is concerned, made tracker-wise, then the module file is the original.
Even an exported wav-format mix is a derivation. So also Mp3's or Ogg's.
I think you could call talk here about : download or stream.
My objection again streaming formats : The zap-culture. Listening for 20 seconds, then search for new.
Another thing is consequences. If you upload an original module-tracker on the web, you'll have to accept that other people can replace the samples or edit the codes. (It's up to their level of civilisation to mention the source or not.)
I guess I'm an exception on this, but I have the habit of never listen to a file online, just download the piece, and listen locally to it.
So, I don't mind being confronted with all offered files in zip-format.
Besides this I like to mention, that I really dislike the habit of presenting a demo Mp3-file of a song, which is not complete or mutilated in another way. It's all or nothing I would say.

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"I guess I'm an exception on this, but I have the habit of never listen to a file online, just download the piece, and listen locally to it.

im the same, but partially because i chose to be, and partially because i have no choice... dialup -_-
tho, i do like to listen to the first 30 seconds or so to see if its actually WORTH listening to a lot of the time, so streaming is nice for that...

You know I have to jump in on this one.

Here's my answer : No

Here's the arrogant, non-assertive, overly aggressive  version: NO F*CKING WAY MAN!

I do agree it is a very nice gesture to release a track or two in mod source so that other may (or may not) learn from your approaches. I think we all could claim we've learned a few things from this method. And I feel it's totally a healthy and sponsored thing. And I totally encourage it.

HOWEVER, forcing people to tally up a even amount of mods vs. MP3s, is unethical, because it violates people's will to choose a path they see fit for themselves. Forget the technicals on it, it's really no different than saying Modplug.com should start collecting tax dollars from it's members. You will be taxing their views and rights to release music in the format of their choosing/liking.

Sure it's nice and loads of fun to see a song in mod, but not everyone feels that it's their moral obligation to do so, and that IS okay.

If you create an infrastructure based off of personal opinion, you are essentially being intolerant to those who do not share your views. Which will in-turn make Modplug a place of tracker snobbery. Don't think so eh? I've seen it happen before, this is old hat!

As far as I can see, Modplug is a place of free music. Not just because there's no monetary exchange, but also because there's a energy here. That energy says "free will". I think that is just awesome. Please don't flick with that.

Quote from: "Matt Hartman"As far as I can see, Modplug is a place of free music. Not just because there's no monetary exchange, but also because there's a energy here. That energy says "free will". I think that is just awesome. Please don't flick with that.

Hehe, I think you're over reacting just a little bit... Anyway, to me ModPlug has never been a place of free music but a place to get modplug tracker, talk about modplug tracker and get to know other people who use modplug tracker.

In the past (talking about years back) MODPlug Central was a place to get modules to learn how to track, and to submit modules so you can learn how you're doing.

Over time, less modules were submitted, and more MP3 music was. Due to this event, people moved away from MODPlug Central, and went over to places like Mod Archive. Also people who do not create music with a tracker submit their music here. This leads to confusion that people who are used to hear tracked music can find a boring song outstunning because it sound so real. Yeah duh, it was a live recording, but they don't know that.

MODPlug Central in my opinion, is a place, and also should be a place to share the music for that of what the program is made for. This way, whenever you hear a song, you can be asured, that it is a tracked song, and not a sequenced, life recorded song.

i feel the focus of the modplug community is to reinforce it's self by connecting with their peers. by really getting your fingers in their music you feel connected to what they do.

if it's just an mp3, then it's just music. if it's a module, then it's everything modplug is about. tracking.  this community is about modplug. you can share an mp3 anywhere. but here, you can share a module and actually get the attention you deserve.

i say 'module only'. this isn't a 'get your free mp3s here!' site. we should leave that to those sites that have already covered that field. i know it isolates people that use VSTs. but modplug isn't about VSTs, VSTis, remastering your final mix, or what kind of limiter you used. i work with 800meg modules every day. it's almost 90% of my music, and i use VSTs and VSTis. i'm never going to be able to submit those songs. but i never intended to. when it comes to making my 800meg module, my goal is just to make quality music. when i want to submit something to modplug, i want to submit something that only trackers would appreciate. that's what motivates me to be a tracker. if you submit a module, you really get appreciated for what you did, because trackers understand each other better than any other community. this is an important thing to preserve. we gotta keep the tracking community on what tracking is really all about.

My point exactly. However, I don't want to limit to modules only, as I think that's a step too far.

As we define modules, should we limit to that what MPT is capable of opening, or should we include other tracker formats like .rns?

Quote from: "LPChip"As we define modules, should we limit to that what MPT is capable of opening, or should we include other tracker formats like .rns?

if there would be a way to keep the right balance between all file-types (even  while some more or less are dying out) including some rns (and alike) would be fair. splitting up categories - each for one file-type and limit them on 25 pieces add-able each month.
the mp3-folder will be full within one week, then musicians can decide wether they put any alternative (or appreciated the ORIGINAL) file in or leave it :twisted:

well, don't want to be contra-productive and make a joke out of it, just came to my mind

The new site will allow for free, unlimited hosting of your songs, regardless of the format.  (We can even host videos in WMV, AVI, MPG and Flash format, if you have made a vid for your song.)

I believe that we should focus on modules, but at the same time, allow MP3/OGG for those who wish to release their songs in those formats as well.  For technical reasons, we can't go overboard and allow every format under the sun, but the basic tracking formats (IT, XM, S3M, MOD, MT2, etc.) as well as the MP3/OGG compressed formats should suffice.

I see no value in restricting artists on the site to one format or the other.  Remember the old motto?  It's the MUSIC, stupid! ;)

Quote from: "LPChip"In the past (talking about years back) MODPlug Central was a place to get modules to learn how to track, and to submit modules so you can learn how you're doing.

Although this problem is not very relevant to me, having my own server to publish things, I still follow the same concept. I don't just blindly upload all my tracker-modules for free, because they are the original compo's.
I make a conscious choice whether or not to offer a module, for the sake of education, or making a point about some specific item as an example.
I have no objection to placing the final thing as Mp3 or Ogg. But it should be restricted to tracker-based things.
On some thread here there already has been a case of someone linking to a non-tracker mp3. I don't like that.
Another aspect here is : do you want to give the visitors the opportunity to listening streaming to songs or not ?
Because I have my doubts if most of them have the browser-capability to listen real-time to an XM-file.
So if one is really interested, one would download the tracker-module and import it locally for playback or view the codes. The same goes on for the mp3 / ogg outputs, if one presents them in a zipped format. One has to download the whole thing or not. This prevents people from 'zapping along' to the next track, because the first 20 seconds weren't exciting enough. Although from the view of compression it is nonsense.

Quote from: "Sam_Zen"The same goes on for the mp3 / ogg outputs, if one presents them in a zipped format. One has to download the whole thing or not. This prevents people from 'zapping along' to the next track, because the first 20 seconds weren't exciting enough. Although from the view of compression it is nonsense.

If people are like me, this'll make them skip the track. ;) Make interesting intros instead, or live with being unliked by those requiring instant gratification. If I would download the whole track, I would still skip it after 20 seconds if it wasn't appealing to me, the only difference would be the wasted bandwidth for the both of us.

I think having more modules for download would be great, and for example in the old modplug site I pretty much downloaded only module-files from the new releases. But still, voting 'no' was quite easy choice.

Maybe the main reason for that is that providing the 'source' in so many cases can not practically be done and thus Modplug.com would become quite restricted in a sense. Why I find this as negative aspect is, for example, that this way one couldn't submit music which might even be made with Modplug tracker. So one might need to find another 'community' where to do that, which in worst scenario could mean that at least the music-side of modplug.com would wither.

Quote from: "LPChip"MODPlug Central in my opinion, is a place, and also should be a place to share the music for that of what the program is made for. This way, whenever you hear a song, you can be asured, that it is a tracked song, and not a sequenced, life recorded song.

Drawing a line between 'tracked song' and 'life recorded song' seems quite impossible since for example one can use live recorded samples in the tune; at which point it would not be considered 'tracked song' anymore?

Quote from: "speed-goddamn-focus"If people are like me, this'll make them skip the track.

I have decided to do so, so I have to take the consequences of the principle of that.
On the other hand, I made trackers once in a while in the past, where the intro is quite impressive, but the rest of the song quite flat and not with satisfaction to me so far.

Quote from: "Relabsoluness"I think having more modules for download would be great, and for example in the old modplug site I pretty much downloaded only module-files from the new releases. But still, voting 'no' was quite easy choice.

Maybe the main reason for that is that providing the 'source' in so many cases can not practically be done and thus Modplug.com would become quite restricted in a sense. Why I find this as negative aspect is, for example, that this way one couldn't submit music which might even be made with Modplug tracker. So one might need to find another 'community' where to do that, which in worst scenario could mean that at least the music-side of modplug.com would wither.

Quote from: "LPChip"MODPlug Central in my opinion, is a place, and also should be a place to share the music for that of what the program is made for. This way, whenever you hear a song, you can be asured, that it is a tracked song, and not a sequenced, life recorded song.

Drawing a line between 'tracked song' and 'life recorded song' seems quite impossible since for example one can use live recorded samples in the tune; at which point it would not be considered 'tracked song' anymore?

Actually, I disagree on that. If you record your voice or you playing an instrument, then use the samples in the tracker, I still considder that tracked. Okay, If you record your entire song as one sample, then I have to agree.