if you play normal wave sample in modplug tracker base note C-5 WITHOUT any resampling(also without any eq, autogain etc.). should it sound exactly the same if you play it in any DAW or soundeditor(soundforge etc.) or is there other things that effect to your sound in MPT??
Fair Question. I think in addition we should ask how good a job OMPT does at converting the finished song to wav.
It really depends on the frequency the sample was recorded, and what the playback frequency of the tracker is.
If both are 44.1khz, then even with interpolation set, it will not change the sound, considered that you keep the note at being C-5.
If you have a sample recorded at 44.1 khz, while you've set the playback rate at 48khz, then there already is some form of interpolation being applied.
thanks , i thought it would be the same.. i just wanted to know cause i make lot of sample based music. and also sometimes play my own samples , so i want them to be exactly same.
so if you use just C-5 notes(44.1khz samples) samples sound allways the same no matter what resampling mode you use??
Quote from: "LevonZOLTAR"
so if you use just C-5 notes(44.1khz samples) samples sound allways the same no matter what resampling mode you use??
Only if you also use 44.1khz for playing and exporting to wav.
Resampling makes your current sample to sound the same when there's a difference in playback rate.
So, if you make your sample play at 26khz and you have 44.1 khz playback rate, you will always have resampling going on. But if you have a sample played at 44.1 Khz, and your playback rate is also 44.1 khz, then there's no need to resample. Interpolation settings only apply when there's a resampling going on.
Every music program I ever used has a bit different sound. This has to do with anti-aliasing filters (or lack of them), bitrate, sample resolution, and in trackers, implementation of effects.
Check out Simon V's excellent site for aliasing comparisons between hosts, also features Modplug: http://www.simonv.com/tutorials/quality.php
(Modplug scored very well in this comparison)
Quote from: "dBlues"Every music program I ever used has a bit different sound. This has to do with anti-aliasing filters (or lack of them), bitrate, sample resolution, and in trackers, implementation of effects.
Check out Simon V's excellent site for aliasing comparisons between hosts, also features Modplug: http://www.simonv.com/tutorials/quality.php
(Modplug scored very well in this comparison)
This site has a bad comparison if you ask me... They used the older modplug tracker before it went open source, and not even the latest version.
OpenMPT RC2 really improved soundquality since 1.16.
A program doesn't sound good or bad on its own. It depends on the skills of the user to get the best out of it.
Quote from: "LPChip"This site has a bad comparison if you ask me... They used the older modplug tracker before it went open source, and not even the latest version.
OpenMPT RC2 really improved soundquality since 1.16.
You are right, the comparison is old. But it has good instructions how to repeat the test itself (which is a good test). I would like to see the current situation measured!
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"A program doesn't sound good or bad on its own. It depends on the skills of the user to get the best out of it.
It is true that tracking is an art, which is not simple to master.
Tracking is just another form of compiling sound into a syncopated form.
You know when you're getting good when you start to mold into your tool.
It's a process that every person in music eventually understands and appreciates.
Sound "quality" is subjective to the listener.
There are very few trackers/tracks I personally find entertaining. But I believe this is not because the sound is compiled via tracker, or that re sampling is the culprit. Rather, the person behind the monitor is not allowing themselves the beauty in process to mold into their tools. And though there are a lot of mechanics in the process of tracking, (as is true for traditional methods) ultimately it is purely an art form. When one understands this, one is then inclined to express without limitations.
The technical understandings of anti-aisling/re sampling are interesting. But without a platform, they are far cry from compelling.
Quote from: "Matt Hartman"Sound "quality" is subjective to the listener.
I agree that subjectiveness is a factor (e.g. whether you want headphones with silky or sharp treble depends on your listening preferences) but still the fact is, that sound quality should be seen as objectively as possible, to minimize unnecessary ear ache/bad qualities of sound. There are pitfalls in digital sound, and aliasing is definitely not the least of them..
Matt: you are right, it is the artist that should do the work in the end, not the tool. As for tracking, I feel it is quite different to any other method of putting together beautiful sounds. More special. It gives you more control, to be able to fully express what you are after. It can become a natural end of your neural system when you put your mind and heart to it. I have been tracking/recording/playing more or less for over twelve years, so I have seen some music software. That is one of the reasons why I can tell you that Modplug is a piece of art itself. It has very good sound quality, it is open and usable. But that is why further improving it is even more important. And that is also why it is relevant to discuss sound quality here.
Well... Its easy to say this I guess...
MODPlug Tracker has already got a change in sound quality, so its quite good. The only way to further improve the sound is to change the internal engine from 16 bit to 32 or 64. This change however is too much work and on top of that too complicated. (Discussed this issue a few times with the programmers)
So even though we can argue about it, its most likelly not gonna change real soon, but then again. The quality of MPT as it is now, is quite good.
32 bit can be archieved using VSTi's and leave samples unharmed, as the VST engine is 32 bit.
Quote from: "LPChip"Well... Its easy to say this I guess...
MODPlug Tracker has already got a change in sound quality, so its quite good. The only way to further improve the sound is to change the internal engine from 16 bit to 32 or 64. This change however is too much work and on top of that too complicated. (Discussed this issue a few times with the programmers)
So even though we can argue about it, its most likelly not gonna change real soon, but then again. The quality of MPT as it is now, is quite good.
32 bit can be archieved using VSTi's and leave samples unharmed, as the VST engine is 32 bit.
Huh? Olivier always praised ModPlug for having an internal 32bit engine! It was 32bit from the beginning...!
Quote from: "Jojo"Quote from: "LPChip"Well... Its easy to say this I guess...
MODPlug Tracker has already got a change in sound quality, so its quite good. The only way to further improve the sound is to change the internal engine from 16 bit to 32 or 64. This change however is too much work and on top of that too complicated. (Discussed this issue a few times with the programmers)
So even though we can argue about it, its most likelly not gonna change real soon, but then again. The quality of MPT as it is now, is quite good.
32 bit can be archieved using VSTi's and leave samples unharmed, as the VST engine is 32 bit.
Huh? Olivier always praised ModPlug for having an internal 32bit engine! It was 32bit from the beginning...!
Sampleplaying is 16 bits, according to Rewbs. I'm sure as he works with the code mostly, he probably knows best.
Quote from: "Jojo"Huh? Olivier always praised ModPlug for having an internal 32bit engine! It was 32bit from the beginning...!
In original MPT help file in technical information it reads: "- 32-bit internal precision for mixing, dithered to 16-bit.". I can't give an explanation what this means, but hopefully someone else can.
i just had a quick go of doing the test from that simonv site someone referred to and modplug now (.48) looks much the same as it did in their test. the best out of all modplugs options was polyphase, i'll try varying settings on that to see what comes out best if i get round to it. i tested by rendering it to a wav, can't test recording output properly. i also listened to the test they used to make sure i got the right notes and octave (all the whites and start one octave up from what it says on the site in modplug, i think i'm using the default on that but might not be..!)
Quote from: "Relabsoluness"Quote from: "Jojo"Huh? Olivier always praised ModPlug for having an internal 32bit engine! It was 32bit from the beginning...!
In original MPT help file in technical information it reads: "- 32-bit internal precision for mixing, dithered to 16-bit.". I can't give an explanation what this means, but hopefully someone else can.
Dithering typically adds noise with amplitude of 1 (bit) to the track. This sounds counter-intuitive but actually causes the audible noise levels to decrease. That is due to evening out, flattening noise spectrum spikes that follow from bit rate conversion. It works due to property of human ear to be more sensitive to higher amplitude singular (one frequency) waves than lower amplitude wider-spectrum waves.
anboi: please put some pictures of spectrums when you get the results! And be sure to avoid clipping but still use maximum non-clipping volume before rendering to wave and analyzing.
thanks for replys all , i think the main difference between DAWs(ableton, cubase etc.) and modplug is 16bit vs. 32bit ,i have made some experiments with simple drum programming in ableton and then modplug. using the exactly same samples(tr808kit 44.1khz/16bitwaw). i put the drums to simpler with no effects and same samples to modplug . for me ableton sounded more bright, crunchy and punchy.
i know, i could get that same punch with modplug, but with one vst for one channel is not really good for that, i love modplug but this issue is annoying me to death. maybe i can start using vst instruments since those suppose to be 32bit. so if you know good vst samplers hook me up!!!
ps. and yea, good music is not about the soundquality, but some types of shit really need that digital brightness,dynamics, etc etc. forexample minimal techno, dubstep etc. etc.
You could try changing the Sound Quality settings in the setup,player section.
Setting it to Polyphase,and WFIR cutoff factor to around 78%,and Sample ramping to 0 samples sounded the best to my ears.
Setting sample ramping to 0 is a very bad idea coz samples that have a DC offset or don't fade out properly will produce clicks...
Never heard any clicks.
I changed it too 0 because when i had it higher,i would lose a part of the attack of certain sounds. (especially kicks were affected)
Besides using samples that have DC offset or have a crappy fade out is a bad idea. :wink:
unluckily, most old mods have bad DCs, but of course i don't know if you listen to that old stuff ;)
Good point,hadn't really thought about that.
I tend to use samples from sample cd's and vsti's so usually no problems here. :D
Quote from: "seventhson"WFIR cutoff factor to around 78%
Goes off-topic, but how have you chosen such value? I'm just interested since I noticed sometime ago that it seems to have major effect on the sound, and it might be useful to know a bit more about it. I have it at 97 %.
97% is the standard. it seems to cut something off (hence the name ^^), but i'm not sure what. the lower the value, the more is cut off. so i suggest having it close to 100%. when i tried it on my track "digital loop", the strings had gone when i set it to 2%. but i have no clue what it had cut out, coz the bass and the treble was still there... so it was probably the mids?
IIRC from the past when I chatted with Rewbs about this, this value is like a smoothness for the sound. The lower the sound is the more it will smoothen the sound. It was really low before because Rewbs thought that it would make the sound nicer. When I started to experiment with it, I noticed that it made the sound more clear as less anti-aliasing was added. Back at that time, I experimented and liked the value of 78. I also noticed that the higher I went the more sharp the sound came so I lost a bit of dynamics.
Its like having a photo, and then add a brightness/contrast over it. You can really clear up the image but when I went up to 100% it was like getting black/white entirelly, loosing the smaller details.
However, it also depends on what value you use when you start tracking, cus especially when you mix in MPT like I do, you can track with this value in mind and then any other value as the one you've used will sound differend and not correct.
I compared modplugs output to songs i thought sounded good and then kept increasing the value untill it sounded as clear as the reference material.
To my ears it sounds like the highs (8khz and up) are increased when you increase the value.