Let me first start this post with the fact that I'm a spiritual person myself.
With spiritualism, I mean the quest to learn about ones self and why someone is on this earth this time of life. Due to that I understand alot more than most people.
I noticed that alot of spiritual people are also into music, so I'm turning the image around to see how much people that are into music, are also into spiritualality.
This action was actually triggered slightly before I made this song: http://forum.openmpt.org/index.php?topic=2467.0
I had a chat with someone I know from CTGMusic, but hadn't had in my list until recently. After we chatted about 2012, I got inspired with making that song, and Sam_Zen's comment triggered the final confirmation that I had to make this topic.
It seems that I've come in touch with alot of spiritual people latelly, and thats no coincidence. I see alot of spiritual people around me, also those who have it in them, but are affraid to come forward with it. If you are affraid to do that, then its best to not lie about it, but just keep silence. You can always PM me and tell me in person.
I hope to get to know more spiritual people this way and have some talks about what lies ahead. The spiritual puzzle is starting to get in shape, but we're seem to miss some pieces.
And if indeed there are as much spiritual people as I think there are, we might have some great subject to discuss here too.
Well, long story short:
I'm spiritual. Are you too?
yes.
QuoteIf you are affraid to do that, then its best to not lie about it, but just keep silence
I don't know, why would someone lie or denie things about his personality or any stuffs when talking to any person. (only maybe if someone gives you a very heavy reason to lie)
I found out a (more or less) common thing amongs artits that they used to "think" alike. Those who really do, naturally pulls near and influences (sometimes subconsciously) each other. That is, of course, far from a "bad thing" in my option. :)
Listened to your piano composition, and found to like the progression and the melody of it =). I've used to make songs with "piano leads", sometimes with slower 80-90bmp, lie back in my chair and think about "overall life and other things" while i'm enjoying listening to them. =)
Here is, one of my latest, "far-from-finished" work, rendered it because i got inspired by your post, to work some more on it these days:
http://www.speedyshare.com/373722276.html
You know allready from my previous demo posts, that i'm a very technological and also melodic when it comes to expressing myself, so expect nothing less =). Sometimes doing it slow is a right thing to do.
Allways nice to c good minded people. :wink:
The difficulty with this subject is the interpretation of the term.
I fancy 'spirit', but I don't trust 'spiritualism'.
I agree about artists being more busy with the spiritual aspects of life than the average Joe.
It's just a natural part of the composing process.
I'm glad
psishock mentions this :
Quotei'm a very technological and also melodic when it comes to expressing myself
Tech compositions are just added to the range of possible audio compositions with electronics.
The tech properties can perform a story as well. As an expression.
But it's getting OT.
I think LPChip explained, what did he meaned for the term 'spiritualism'. I know that it can have a lot different and other meanings starting from strange religions and whatsoever, but if he askes me, am i interested to "learn about ones self and why someone is on this earth this time of life" type of questions, the answer is sure, i was wondering too about a lot of similar questions in my life many times.
As for technology:
In my option, it is one of the most essential thing besides the creativity. Without it you cannot have full control of the sound. It's different ofcourse with orcerstra or similar type of music since the musical instrument are already given, you "just" have to call out the melodies from them. But in electronics you are "building" even your instruments from zero and that gives you a whole new level of freedom. (many ppl are using pregenerater presets or samples, but i allways highly prefer self-generated ones, dislike the idea of using any "not original" work)
Well, I'm Christian. As some people have pointed out, though, I'm not comfortable with the term "spiritualist" or whatever, because it has connotations of new-age religions. But I'm religious, yes.
I really don't follow any religion (or the most practicular rules of the life :D), these stuffs are most often unacceptable and pointless for me, but i stongly belieave example in the pontential of the human ego.
The distinction between a personal spiritual model an and a believe in a commonly accepted religious model is a big one.
And it should have the freedom to question the 'thruths' that are represented.
"Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit, a concept closely tied to religious belief and faith, a transcendent reality, or one or more deities. Spiritual matters are thus those matters regarding humankind's ultimate nature and purpose, not only as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is perceived to be beyond both time and the material world." - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality)
So, according to this explanation, I'm not spiritual. I have thought about it a lot, but I always come to a conclusion that any kind of world doesn't exist above this "mortal realm". I'm not religious either and mostly think of myself as a follower of the philosophy of agnosticism.
If thinking this from LPChip's viewpoint (the quest to learn about ones self and why someone is on this earth this time of life), it is a more difficult question, as this explanation is much broader than the Wikipedia one. I know quite a bit about myself from analytical psychology aspect (i.e. about my personality). On the other hand, I don't think these properties come from a soul or a spirit: I think they come from genes. Nor do I think it's my soul or spirit that is the being that actually thinks and orders the body around. When I die, the brain stops working and that's it: only an empty corpse and memories in other's minds left.
In short, I find myself thinking of these matters but always end up in the same conclusion: our lifes here don't continue beyond our death. And when talking about 2012 and other things like that, I totally refuse them as I find it absurd to have one's destiny based on positions of planets or stars.
Quote from: "LPChip"Let me first start this post with the fact that I'm a spiritual person myself.
With spiritualism, I mean the quest to learn about ones self and why someone is on this earth this time of life. Due to that I understand alot more than most people.
I'm not sure whether I misunderstand you completely or that last sentence (in the quote) is pompously self righteous, but I hope it's the former.
Quote from: "LPChip"I'm spiritual. Are you too?
I thought a little about that, and the answer is a clear no. I'm not religious in any way, I don't believe in fate or that we're here for a reason. Anyway, I know you're not after a debate on spiritualism but rather a discussion on things you find spiritual, so I'll stop here.
Lol, after all these comments i feel rather confused about some terms listed here, and what exactly LPChip wanted in the end to talk about or do here. I think the best is waiting for him, i'm sure he will make it more clear for once, what did he have in mind. =)
Well, I noticed that most spiritual people are also into music and other creative stuff. I hoped it would be a reverse too. That the people that are into music, are also spiritual. Thats why I made this topic, just to see how it goes.
But as I see it now, most of the people here aren't into spirituality like I am. Which is okay ofcource.
If there are people here that are into spirituality (a few are) feel free to send me a PM so we can chat about it some time.
Where have I been, LPChip? You chatted until 2012? Wow! :lol: See? I can be humorous! As for spiritual, I would have to say that I would probably be considered full of spirit. I am happy most of the time and extremely energetic at times. Here are a few samplings of me. The recording is probably not the best quality, as it was done with a Palm device (in particular, the Zire 72). And, just in case you were wondering, you should find an extremely familiar name in one of them! I believe that I only put it in one of them though. If you would like to hear the voice, I can send you some songs that contain that as well :lol:.
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1017050/Alienware---Taste---Weird-.WAV.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1024767/Weird-.WAV.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1024769/Odd-.WAV.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1024770/Wodd-.WAV.html
Here are some samplings of the voice in action (It sounds quite nice!)
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062643/10_Seconds_I_Can_Do_16-.it.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062601/Daisy_Enters_the_World_of_Bookworm_Part_Classic.it.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062640/Daisy_Enters_the_World_of_Chex_Quest_Part_Sewer_System.it.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062652/Daisy_Enters_the_World_of_One_Must_Fall_Part_Danger_Room.it.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062705/Daisy_Enters_the_World_of_Yahtzee_Part_Battle.it.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062717/Daisy_Meets_Microsoft--s_Narrators.mptm.html
http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1062383/I_Love_Princess_Daisy-_2.it.html
If the part at the top of the post does not humor you, these might.
Attempt #1:
D: Dazzlemazing (See? I am not the only person that does that! :lol:) (http://www.homestarrunner.com/fireworks.html)
A: Admirable
I: [He then combines her voice with Insanely Weird! (http://www.file-upload.net/en/download-1026789/Insanely-Weird-.it.html)] Insanely_Good_Looking (Some would say beautiful (In fact, I will have to admit that I have used this description before.), some would say cute, but, at the moment, I am saying insanely good looking.) (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail197.html)
S: Strongly attractive (I guess that would be a Strong Good. I would certainly not consider that a Strong Bad (http://www.homestarrunner.com/vcr_sb.html) :lol:!)
Y: As Homestar says, the Y (although in his case it is a Z.) is too hard, so I think that I will take a pass on this one. (See the Love Poems e-mail.)
http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail195.html
Attempt #2:
Here is something for you to ponder!
Do you know what would be weird?
Using a Windows based keyboard on a Macintosh run computer and it exploding because you used a key that Mac OS does not like (such as Insert, the num pad's secondary functions (End, ↓, Page Down, ←, →...), or Print Screen. The sequence may be like this.
You: I would like to save a copy of that please, Print Screen
Mac OS: Print Screen? What is that? Ssssssss (smoke coming out the top of the computer)
Mac OS: Kaboom! (the Mac exploding)
You: One down, two to go!
,
You: I would like to go home. Oh, crap, my Home key is broken. OK, let's turn Num Lock off here...There we go! 7 (Home)
Mac OS: Home on the num pad? I have no such thing! I will return you home! (The Mac explodes and sends you flying to your house and you wake up the next day as though you were just sedated at the doctor's office.)
You: What the crap just happened? Oh, my Mac exploded! Oh, crap! Oh, well! Two down, one to go!
, or
You: I would like to insert this picture into this document. Do not fear, Insert is here! (You press the Insert key to paste the picture.)
Mac OS: What the crap? I have a key called Help, not Insert, thank you! That is what Apple-V and the mouse are for!
You: Well, Mac OS, learn to deal with my Insert, OK?
Mac OS: Fine, then, I will insert that picture for you! (Waterfall sound)
Mac OS: There, inserted! Are you happy now?
You: No! You just peed my carpet! You malevolent computer! You should have just accepted my Insert and you would not have died! Oh, well, one down, zero to go!
Or the reverse
You: I would like to open my Start menu, please. (You press the Apple key, thinking that your Start menu will open because your keyboard lacks a Windows key.)
Windows: Apple? What kind of key is that? (Windows closes all of your open programs.)
You: What was that for? I will now confiscate your C: partition to shut you down! (You format the C drive, Windows responds, and you are not pleased. Here is Windows' response.)
Windows: What was THAT for? As a result of that, here you go! (Windows gives you the Blue Screen of Death.)
You: Geez, Windows, you did not have to give me the Blue Screen of Death!
Windows: You, however, did not have to format the C: partition either!
You: I see, I will put an end to this now! (You open the computer's case and scratch your hard drive with a thorny plant and it explodes. Your computer happens to be right next to the hard drive, so it also explodes. You get sent flying into outer smacintosh.) (Smacintosh = space + Macintosh)
You: One down, four to go!
,
You: I need some help on how to use this program! (You press the Help key because you are afraid of what might happen if you press F1.)
Windows: Help? I have never seen a key like that before. I have reserved the F1 key for help and where you have the Help key (whatever that is), I have an Insert key on my keyboards!
You: Oh, thank you for the F1 tip, Windows! (You accidentally press Alt-F4, then Enter and your computer shuts down!)
You: Ugh! I pressed F1, just like Windows said, but my computer shut down! I did not know that Windows was a liar!
Windows: I was not born to lie (that I am aware of anyway). The reason that your F1 key did what it did is because you did not press F1, you pressed Alt-F4, which I have reserved for exiting programs (including myself!)
You: I did not press any Alt-anythings! I pressed F1!!!!!!
Windows: I am sorry, but I do not provide the help dialogue when Alt-F4 is pressed!
You: Fine, then, here is ALT-EXPLODE! (You pull the pin on a hand grenade and place it inside the computer. You forget to leave the room, hold the Alt key down on your keyboard, the grenade explodes, and you are sent to outer swindows.) (Swindows = space + Windows)
You: Two down, three to go!
,
You: I need a Euro sign in this Word document here. Let's see here, Option-E, there we go that should have worked. Waa, it didn't! Ugh! Maybe the computer just did not respond! Option...(You receive the Blue Screen of Death.) Holy crap! All I did was press Option-E!
Windows: Option? On a keyboard? You have never used me, have you?
You: For your information, Windows, yes I have!
Windows: You sure do not act like you have used me before! I bet that the reason that you pressed Option is because you are Windows illiterate and a communist fool!
You: I am no fool, Windows! I will prove it right now! (You hack into the BIOS and mess everything up.)
Windows: Ha-ha! Apparently, you are a fool because you just changed the boot sequence so that I boot from a non-existing floppy first!
You: I will show you a fool, Windows! (You press F12 hoping that you can make Windows shut down.)
You: Hey, Windows! How come you did not shut down just then?
Windows: You pressed F12, my friend. I do not shut down by you pressing F12, you can use Control-Alt-Delete to do that if I am not behaving the way you want me to.
You: OK, I will try that, malevolent Windows. (You accidently highlight one of your programs and permanently delete it by pressing Shift-Delete.)
You: Windows lied again! Stupid Windows!
Windows: I did not lie; you pressed Shift-Delete, not Control-Alt-Delete. I prefer the term false advertiser, not malevolent.
You: Ugh! Here is CONTROL-ALT-SHIFT-EXPLODE! (You pour 409 on your hard drive and it, as well as the computer explodes and you are sent flying to the other side of your house!)
You: Three down, two to go!
You: I need to find something on my computer, so I will right-click Start and open Explorer. (You hold down your mouse button on the Start button then click Explore.)
Windows: A mouse with only one button? Get that out of my face NOW!
You: And why should I do that, Windows? You should learn how to deal with foreign hardware!
Windows: I do know how to deal with most foreign hardware, however, I refuse to accept that mouse of yours!
You: Fine then, I will end your acceptance of hardware from this day, henceforth! (You place a timed mine inside the case of the computer, it explodes, but you are silly and stand next to the computer the whole time. The mine explodes, as well as the computer. You end up on the clear other side of your house.)
You: Four down, one to go!
, or
You: I need to type many numbers into this spreadsheet here. I think that it may be easier to do with the num pad. Oh, crap! Num Lock is off! No big deal, I can still type numbers anyway!
Windows: Oops! I am sorry, but I reformatted your num pad to suit my needs. When you just pressed 1, I made you go to the end of the row instead of inserting a one!
You: That's it! I am tired of you laughing at me and reformatting my hardware! GOOD BYE, WINDOWS! (You pour gasoline into the heat sinks and the computer overheats and explodes. You get fried by the explosion and end up in Strongbadia to live with Strong Bad and the other Homestar Runner related characters.
Windows and Mac OS together (as ghosts): We will not tolerate this humiliation!
You: Well, deal with it, untrustworthy operating systems! You should learn to get along with each other better and accept the opposite hardware! (You throw a ghomb (the combination of ghost and bomb) at the computers and they (as well as The Cheat) explode. The Cheat recovers (very disappointed at the fact that he had just exploded), but the computers do not come back again.
You: Whew! At least I am through with those treacherous computers!
Note: I have tried using a Windows keyboard on Mac OS and it worked just fine. Here is how the remapping went.
Start → Apple
Print Screen → F13 (Unknown function)
Scroll Lock → F14 (Brightness Down)
Pause → F15 (Brightness Up)
Insert → Help
Applications → Unknown
Num Lock → No function whatsoever (The LED does not even light up!)
Home and End → Do not move you to end of the line, move the entire scroll bar!
Mouse → No changes made except for slowerness (possibly due to Mac OS instead of Windows...ness) (Yes, the keyboard that I used does have an integrated mouse. It is not a touchpad though).
spiritual in the sense that I think we are in something is bigger than what we perceive
I was raise a Catholic, became born again in Church of Christ and twice attended Lutheran services for a few years.
But I don't' find comfort in religion - I indeed see contradictions
I see promise of reward or fear of damnation childish motivation for leading a good life.
The most christian person (that is Christ-like) I have met is indeed an atheist.
I do not believe we are here.
I do not believe we have ever been here.
Our soul in the guise of corporal consciousness is living out a temporary life in an imaginary place that has no relation to the reality of "Being"
we live through our body but are not of it
our purpose is to workout and find who we really are
but given a soul that can't be touched by another corporal being no real harm can be done to one another
a part of this charade of life is that no one can prove anything to anyone else about their personal experiences
look at it - as if we were in spacesuits we are all.... in fact.....
totally isolated from one another
language, art, music, are attempts to bridge this gap
but there is no way to know if what we perceive is the same as the perception of anyone else - or even know what is different
when I say "green" is the color
is that color the same color you see when you look on the same object?
we have indeed two levels of differences
one of the personality
one of perception through the body
our choices define who we are
and in the end..... we will judge ourselves.
As
psishock (nice remarks about the tech, btw), I'm a bit confused too.
So in order to get my spirit a bit at ease, I try to derive some things out of all the philosophy here.
- Being a spiritual person is not the monopoly of religious people (although lots of them think so)
Like uncloned said about the atheist, I have enough with my own common sense to behave like a civilised person.
I don't need some ten commandments to act in a decent way. Or a promise of some heaven.
- Our body, senses and brain have limited capacities, so we can't understand everything that's happening.
So here, I like it the zen way, not supposing something out of the obscure, but not denying things either.
Not following preset ideas from the outside for easy satisfaction, but just keep on wonderin'..
And I like to explore all corners of my brain, because that's my territory.
Quote from: "Dictator"I find it absurd to have one's destiny based on positions of planets or stars.
Yep, I have strong doubts about that too. But a big planet coming along, messing up our solar system, is another story.
QuoteI like it the zen way, not supposing something out of the obscure, but not denying things either.
That sentence is probably where your name was derived. Does that seem reasonable? I am going to guess that the "Sam" part is probably because your name is Sam or perhaps you just like the name.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"
Yep, I have strong doubts about that too. But a big planet coming along, messing up our solar system, is another story.
Its always the damn astrophysics mucking things up....
and if it ain't a stray planet it is a black hole 100 light years away winking out of existence with a bust of radiation sterilizing its quadrant of the galaxy.....
Bing!Next evolution of life please......
Since I have dealt with other realms besides the one we all experience there is no question as to where I stand. But the truth is that I don't put too much stock in it, I just enjoy my life while it is here, and improve myself as I see fit. I have times of strong devotion to certain doctrines, one that will always stick out is the tried and true Golden Rule. You can't go wrong with that one. All else is kinda bunk.
I am playing with numerology, the system I am learning is eye-opening. I can get reams of information with a few numbers. How terse and amazing! It's too much fun testing it!
More to follow, I am distracted by love lol!
2 residentgrey
I share your liking of numbers and especially the Golden Rule. But I don't try to explain or predict anything out of it.
But I must admit that some savants have strong feelings about certain numbers. They experience some as 'ugly', others as 'beautiful'.
I feel this with the Golden Rule as well. The order of Fibonacci.. To me it's not cold mathematics, but a very organic, natural thing.
2 uncloned
In the perspective of this, isn't it a rather silly question to ask ourselves : - Why are we here ? It just doesn't seem to matter.
2 RWP
What a surprise. You can be reasonable too :)
Indeed I'm usually called Sam. And I prefer the zen way in daily life.
A bit more to it : These are also the last three letters of my family name.
I like to play with language and 'obvious' meanings.
That is interesting. I initially thought that "zen" meant easy or something to tha effect because, unless I am mistaken, "zen" mode typically is easier than normal modes in video games, but apparently "zen" actually means Chinese. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Zen
I'm Christian, but that's only my christian name. IRL i'm ignostic. Every civilization has its own god(s). And with the fall of a civilization, its god(s) is/are getting meaningless as new gods have been created to serve as creators. All the hackneyed gods are mythology, and the gods currently in use are religion. When people are getting sick of their current god, they put him to mythology and create a new, better one.
Maybe there is a real god (maybe even more of them), but I don't know of him/her/them/it.
This is my opinion. I don't wanna make it a fact. I just believe in science :)
When we leave religions aside, then I think that every person is more or less spiritual. But in our industrialized high-tech society, people don't take the time for spiritual aspects of life. Life is getting faster and faster, fast-food, infarctions, stress, even on vacation. Many Germans (you can also replace this by Brits, Americans, younameit) who holiday in other countries, insist on "german" hotels. If i were to holiday in another country, i wouldn't want to see any Germans at all :-D. But i wouldn't even holiday at places full of holidaymakers. How could one relax under such circumstances? More and more people schedule their whole lives, with agendas, cell phones, everything must be "perfect". People are getting mentally ill, suffer from burnout. We are trying to buy our luck (tv, video games, drugs, shopping, "sex industry", ...). We are missing something in our lives and we are trying to fill this emptiness with buying and using those products. They might help for a while, but after some time the emptiness is even worse. For the next "kick" you will need something bigger. There is a mental chaos. Others decide who we are. And if we don't meet the requirements of the society, or the ideal of ourselves, then we can make room for more emptiness until the soul is one single black hole. I think, that's why people say: just be yourself!
Based on the starting of that message, cubaxd, it sounds like you control a gray and orange robot and have a sister whose name is what salt comes in and, uh, yeah, that was a bad joke! Continuing
As for the emptiness, there is only one thing that can fill one's emptiness. What can fill one's emptiness is Jesus. As you mentioned, many people have tried many different things such as drugs, various gods and goddesses, etc, but none of it works. As you also mentioned, it does indeed have the potential to leave them feeling more depressed than they may have before. The gods being used as creators is an interesting thing because most gods are not even people at all. They are statues, sculptures and the like. Things that have no brains
I tend to change opinion and feeling from time to time. From a philosophical position I think that life is a little like looking at a painting from different angles and positions with large numbers of people. Each person gets an impression and there is no way for me to tell you that your impression is wrong per se... This is text-book post-modernism, and is being challenged by both devout religious people as well as political humanists. Even taking in the critique that there can not be many true answers to one question at least on a moral, ethical and spiritual plane I think that we, at least in some degrees, "create our own truths" as societies and individuals. These truths are of course not without tension.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"
2 uncloned
In the perspective of this, isn't it a rather silly question to ask ourselves : - Why are we here ? It just doesn't seem to matter.
I don't know - I think it may be even more important considering how very temporary it all is....
You have heard my guess - but it is only a guess.
There is only one way to find out - and in that have no choice.
This is an excellent topic, thanks for posting it LPChip. I am very spiritual. I was raised as a protestant Christian, and was a member of the United Church. When that church made some decisions I didn't agree with, I began to question what was the truth. And what exactly is truth anyway? What is THE truth? After a very long struggle, I formulated this: Truth is the actuality of everything, whether or not you believe it , or are even aware that it exists; it IS. So either there is a God or there isn't. Either we live after our bodies die or we don't. Where do morals and guilt come from? Why do we have these emotions, if not for some purpose? I for one don't claim to know the truth, I just claim that it exists, but I do believe that there is something bigger than we as humans can fathom. We do not posess all of the knowledge in the universe, so there can be no absolute conclusion, but we do posess the ability to believe through faith. I do believe there is something greater out there, and I choose to believe there is a God. Maybe I'm wrong, but you know what? I'd rather be a nice, loving person than be mean.
And if you are exploring the Christian faith in particular, the Bible says to test the spirits. It would be wise to take that to heart.
And I hope that this will not be considered spam, but a there is a documentary you can watch that would be excellent food for thought.
Look it up, it is called American Zeitgeist. And after watching it, yes, I am still a Christian. While it attempts to quash religion in general, it has had the opposite affect and actually boosted my belief in God.
Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I look forward to more comments and some good debate.
Nice link, RWP. I still don't see the link to video games, but a street name for LSD is funny as well. Plus :
"How'd you figure out the buffer allocation problem?" "Oh, I zenned it."
2 cubaxd
I agree about the loss of recent gods being filled with being a consumer, buying things, to get happy.
But I think it's a poor thing if religions use the same market-mechanism to get their customers back.
2 RWP
Oh, come on. This guy just was lucky enough that some stories about him were saved in a book.
It's not impossible that some wise Hopi-indian in the same century had a far better message. But it's gone in the air.
As long as a question is not correctly formulated, answers probably will be confusing.
Apart from the preset factor : Should we question things in the first place ?
Or, more pragmatic, people demand an answer anyway, so others create a question for it.
That is a great post, tvdude. Because we cannot see, hear, or touch God, we can only trust that He will get us through by one thing, and that is called faith, as you had mentioned.
Although I have started the topic but haven't posted in it myself that much, I'm reading everything.
I find it a bit hard to join the discussion since I'm a very spiritual person myself, and I don't want to give an uncomfortable feeling to anyone, especially since I could say things that might offend anyone.
I am pleased to see that this topic is going the way as it is going though. :)
Why worry about comfort levels?
Everyone is bound to offend someone
It can't be avoided
I think LP, that noone should be offended if they aren't seeing the world as you do. Everybody go an own picture about these ideas. You aren't need to censor yourself at any rate, who don't care about the ideas you (or any other person) may found out, simply won't read this thread. You are you, exchange of views and possible positive arguments won't change that fact. =)
I am a very curious person (about the most things), and will allways look forward to discuss interesting topics.
unclonedQuoteIt can't be avoided
sure it can, if you're extra cautios and saying only stuff what others want to hear. That will help you to fit in every enviroment and society in the world. I'm doing that on my daily life from time to time =), but you can never be "yourself" that way.
Thats true I guess, but as this is mainly a music forum, I don't want to see people leave this place because of a topic. :)
I have a question. As uncloned mentioned, how can offensiveness be totally avoided? Psishock had an interesting attempted solution; however, how can you know everything that everyone wants to hear? Even if you could somehow do that, how would you know if what someone wants to hear does not offend someone already? Do you understand my point?
RWP, you can't know that. That's why the saying goes "silence is golden".
Quote from: "Really Weird Person"I have a question. As uncloned mentioned, how can offensiveness be totally avoided? Psishock had an interesting attempted solution; however, how can you know everything that everyone wants to hear? Even if you could somehow do that, how would you know if what someone wants to hear does not offend someone already? Do you understand my point?
What people do not realize is that it is a choice to be offended.
One does not have to
take offense just like one does not have to agree.
Our actions are our own choices
And our choices define *US* - who we are.
What we chose to believe, what we chose to say or do. Are all our choices.
Inaction and trying to avoid choice is a choice also - even if one tries to fool one's self that is is different.
Both of those are good points. Just like "No news is good news." Speaking of good news, what ever happened to that game? Or the "How Much Do You Know about the Poster?" one
And now for something completely equal: As you can see here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qANMjwLmo6Y), democracy doesn't work when we are all different! ;)
Actually, I'm not affraid to offend people, but more about creating a topic that is not of interest to some. Since I can see how much people respond to this topic already, it might overshadow the musical chatter.
I just think that I can't restrain myself when it comes about spirituality because I've tasted it this much. Some of you who know me better will know what I talk about.
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Eating the Flying Spaghetti Monster (which I had no idea what was until I read [part of] the article) would likely take care of one's physical hunger and, perhaps, even cause them to overeat and become ill, but what about spiritual hunger? Hmm, interesting concept, eh? I do not see how worshipping an octopus looking creature with strings of pasta for arms would get anyone saved and into heaven (Excuse me if I sound too religious with that remark.)
In the beginning, there was Man. And Man created god and in the image of Man created he him.
And Man gave unto god a multitude of names, that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man.
And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.
I think it is really more than a reasonable time to end with all this madness about trying not to be guilty (if god exist, only he is guilty of everything) and become Human at last, which can only be if there is no god at all.
The only sin that there is in the world, it's believing that there is something above Mankind.
In that case, where did Man come from? Hmm, a logic test here, rncekel
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Unless either you eat it or, as was mentioned before, it eats you! I still see neither a point or benefit in worshipping pasta.
First of all I would like to say that I personally think LPChip is perhaps just a little nuts! But then again who isn't :) it's all a matter of what you believe and how other people relate to it.
I myself is what you can possibly describe as open. I don't believe in what LPChip does but I would not at the same time say that it's just bullshit either.
History have shown that most strange things that people don't understand can or will be explained by using science at some point. Supernatural things will then become science and thus be accepted my the majority of people.
There are things however that I think science will have great problems to explain. A good example that I like to use is when and how did nature figure out that it was a good idea to transport blood in blood vessels?!
And what if the big bang is not as special as we think. What if there was several big bangs in a huge void - what will happen when two universes expands enough so that they will meet?
Also the interesting thing about humans is that we can't imagine NOTHING since we either think of it as totaly black , white or a empty space. Nothing is NOTHING and not empty (that was deep I admit it). As far as human understanding goes we need to apply materialistic stuff to everything since that's the world we are living in - we simply can't understand nothing!
I think it can be a little stupid to not be open to the fact that people experience things differently, and that some people may believe things perhaps because they understand it differently than other people who choose to believe in other things.
A example would be if someone believes in ghost as "ghosts" . Other people again may believe that ghosts are signs or omens for something else. I personally don't believe in ghosts but perhaps some people really are seeing something that others can't see.
I personally don't believe in ghosts or supernatural things but I will not at the same time say that it's impossible. I however would like to say that it's very unlikely... but not impossible ;)
I myself have experienced a few things that I can't explain by any means. Because of this I think it would be stupid of me to not be open to the fact that there just *might* be something more between heaven and earth even tough I really don't believe in it.... or do I?... ;)
...and I said that LPChip is nuts... yeah right....
Quote from: "Waxhead"First of all I would like to say that I personally think LPChip is perhaps just a little nuts!
...and I said that LPChip is nuts... yeah right....
You said it twice now... Or 3 times if you count our msn chat :D
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LPChip...you've opened Pandora's Box....but I love it. Don't worry about the topic overshadowing music. What is music anyway? You can't see it, taste it, touch it, or feel it (physically). You can only hear it, and then formulate thoughts regarding it. What you hear might make you sad, happy, angry, lonely, or any variety of emotions. Music, is pure emotion, and affects us humans on that level. This topic, although not musical, actually hits the same emotions music does, and therefore is highly relavant in this forum, as it will mostlikely spawn some great works of sound, not to mention, some great debate.
And to rncekel...I love your post. I have a very good friend who is a complete athiest; he challenges my way of thinking...you remind me very much of him. You could be right, maybe man created god. But then again, you might be wrong. If there is life after death, won't we have a great conversation...maybe we'll both be wrong.
Quote from: "rncekel"In the beginning, there was Man. And Man created god and in the image of Man created he him.
And Man gave unto god a multitude of names, that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man.
And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.
I think it is really more than a reasonable time to end with all this madness about trying not to be guilty (if god exist, only he is guilty of everything) and become Human at last, which can only be if there is no god at all.
The only sin that there is in the world, it's believing that there is something above Mankind.
Jethro Tull mostly - isn't it?
From Aqualung?
Quote from: "Really Weird Person"In that case, where did Man come from? Hmm, a logic test here, rncekel
I think this is a sum zero game RWP
The game is no one can prove anything to anyone
Each has to find their own way to destiny
If there was real proof the debate would have been over long ago.
and whose to say that
(deserving) christians, buddists, hundus, etc go to heaven
the undeserving to hell
the atheist winks out of existence
the agnostic.... what would be fitting? become inanimate? no - never get an answer.
QuoteNot pasta
If Spaghedeity's appendages are not made of pasta, then what are they made of, clay? Stone? I would have to say that Spaghedeity is probably something (note the "thing" part) that was imagined and does not exist. It may exist in video games, but I have not played them if it does. Most of the games that I play [on consoles at least] are made by Nintendo and I cannot recall playing a single game made by them with a character called Spaghedeity.
I agree with uncloned about the inevitable option of being offensive. Often because some book, person, or mountain is declared 'holy'.
But I'm glad we've passed this tricky stage in this discussion, because we're just free spirits expressing ideas.
I agree with tvdude that music, sound-constructions, can be a very spiritual phenomenon.
Tonight I saw the docu "What the bleep..", about quantum-physics, for the 2nd time and I was still quite impressed.
A story about Indians on the Caribbean island when the fleet of Columbus approaches their coast.
They just didn't see the actual ships, because there was no element in their brain about such a contraption.
They just noticed some movement in the sea-water, wondering what was going on. So they came back to the shore every day.
Only after a week or so someone was able to actually see the ships with his eyes, and tell the others about it.
The docu also told about an experiment, where it appeared possible to see the same object being on two different positions at the same time.
But it also shows examples of the mindpower to change molecular structures of water.
To uncloned: Yes, although I have write it "by heart", so it may be not exact.
To Sam Zen: I also have seen that fiilm a year ago or so with my family. And I found it quite interesting. But don't let your eyes deceived you: when people speak about god, most of them are speaking of very different things. That's why it is not possible to prove anything about god, because the word itself is undefined, and has a lot of different and uncompatible meanings.
I don't think that the "barbeque guys" (Inquisition) means by god the same thing as Teilhard of Chardin, for example, and of course, completely different of what some people in this film means by this word.
But, RWP, don't speak us about Jesus filling our emptiness, because I'm not empty at all, and Jesus wasn't a petrol can. If you mean that he might fill your life, well, I can agree with that, but that it's only right for you because YOU have chosen it so.
Quote from: "LPChip"Quote from: "Waxhead"First of all I would like to say that I personally think LPChip is perhaps just a little nuts!
...and I said that LPChip is nuts... yeah right....
You said it twice now... Or 3 times if you count our msn chat :D
Actually I think I said it over 10 times... and I would like to add that you are probably pretty much bananas :nuts:
And me?... well I would like to join those who are worshiping the spaghetti people! - Really Weird Person for president!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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This rather semantic discussion about a god becomes maybe a bit way off, because LP started about personal spiritualism.
The believe in the existence, or the denial, of a god, is just a small aspect in this discours.
QuoteLogic test: why would a supreme being be bounded to substances known to man?
2 logic answers :
1. Why not ? It could be a pebble on the Kilimandjaro.
2. Of course not. A supreme being doesn't need so-called 'concrete' material.
As I said, I don't deny the existence of a supreme being.
But if so, I only accept the 'ultimate supreme'. Not some rather pathetic man-thought being like an old man with a beard.
As said in the bleep-movie, it must be that big, that it doesn't bother about blasfemia, or getting angry about non-believers or 'sinners'.
I had my criticism about 'holy things', because they are causing a lot of trouble and fighting.
But there's one way, I can accept that. To the aboriginals in Australie some woods or mountains were 'holy'.
But this declaration meant, that it has become an area that people shouldn't enter anymore.
So no human claims anymore, or exploit the resources of the area, but given back to nature.
let me observe that I can think of no reason for God to be capable of being defined by a logical argument at all.
My position is
I do not know
I do not care that I do not know
I try to do the right thing for its own sake.
God is way too big/different/powerful for me to grasp/grok
it is not necessary for me to grasp/grok God.
Actually, if you talk spiritualism, there are people that say that the true god is whitin yourself, so that you basically are your own god.
That also makes it understandable why the true goal of spiritualism is to learn more about yourself, because that would be believing in god = believing in yourself.
For me, the only true god is the one inside of me. :)
FSM ftw, ahh the follies of college people!
Spirituality is just an openness to something outside our realm of understanding. People keep mentioning God or FSM, or some other figure. That's religion: a codified set of doctrines and archetypes representing some set of qualities to uphold and adhere to. I just wanted to remind everyone of that.
Quote from: "LPChip"That also makes it understandable why the true goal of spiritualism is to learn more about yourself, because that would be believing in god = believing in yourself.
I'm curious, what does it even mean to "learn about yourself"? And what makes it spiritual?
2 uncloned
Your lines are right on the spot.
From time to time there are missionary people who want to convince me to be a "seeking" person. They take that for granted.
Well, I'm not. And you express very sharply my reasons why.
2 älskling
Good point about "learn about yourself". From the moment we're born, we're learning about ourselves, as well as the world.
I just feel obliged to keep on learning until I die, otherwise I would have the feeling that I'm wasting living-time.
I don't understand people, that decide to have learned enough for the rest of their lives at a moment and just go on.
And sometimes this learning could involve 'spiritual' items. Is this a 'spiritual' discussion, or just an exchange of words ?
Quote from: "älskling"Quote from: "LPChip"That also makes it understandable why the true goal of spiritualism is to learn more about yourself, because that would be believing in god = believing in yourself.
I'm curious, what does it even mean to "learn about yourself"? And what makes it spiritual?
If you look closer to the word spiritual, you'll notice the word spirit.
Humans are made out of 3 parts. Our body, our mind and our soul.
Our soul is what I call a spirit.
Spiritualism is about learning what our soul is and how we can be in balance with it, because when you're in balance with your soal, life is as beautifull as it can get. Its all about happyness actually.
Quote from: "LPChip"If you look closer to the word spiritual, you'll notice the word spirit.
Humans are made out of 3 parts. Our body, our mind and our soul.
Our soul is what I call a spirit.
Spiritualism is about learning what our soul is and how we can be in balance with it, because when you're in balance with your soal, life is as beautifull as it can get. Its all about happyness actually.
Thank you for the clarification :) So how does one get in balance with ones soul?
Quote from: "älskling"Quote from: "LPChip"If you look closer to the word spiritual, you'll notice the word spirit.
Humans are made out of 3 parts. Our body, our mind and our soul.
Our soul is what I call a spirit.
Spiritualism is about learning what our soul is and how we can be in balance with it, because when you're in balance with your soal, life is as beautifull as it can get. Its all about happyness actually.
Thank you for the clarification :) So how does one get in balance with ones soul?
I guess you can say that its about finding happyness. Once you're happy with your life, you'll be more in balance, and the more you're in balance, the better you'll understand how to get even more in balance. For instance, if you're not happy with your work, then it'll eat you up. According to spiritualism, you would find a job that suits you.
Another thing that comes to mind is that nowadays most people don't live in the now. They live in the past, present and future. I hear you thinking. How can one live in the past or future if time is fixed? With living in the past and future I refer to a problem that recently happened, and that you keep thinking about that event that happened. Failing to let go drains alot on you and makes you unhappy. Also having an appointment scheduled in the future has a similar effect. You keep watching the time for that appointment, and by that you're getting stressed about something that is going to happen while its not even happening right now, causing you to use unnecessary energy.
When you live in the now (aka present) you don't look back for what happened, only as a reference. You don't watch your appointments, as they will come anyway. Instead you focus entirelly on the thing you're currently doing. Ofcource there are moments where you can't do much. This means that you have a free moment to relax. This relaxing gives you more energy, but furthermore, it gives you an oppotunity to enjoy the wonderfull world that we all live in.
Before I lived in the now, I drove to work in my car focussing on the road. Since thats something that you can nearly do sleeping if you drive the same road every day, I started to think about what I was going to do today and stuff like that. Now, I drive to my work, and while driving, I think: hey, that tree looks quite nice! and stuff like that. And I think about other things, but mostly I enjoy life alot now. :)
I actually developed some techniques to live in the now. So if anyone wants to know, I can help with that.
QuoteOnce you're happy with your life, you'll be more in balance,
Sorry LP, but the order is a bit a contradiction. You start about balance, of which I thought : ok.. , but now you introduce happiness.
Imo it would be more correct to say : Once your life is in balance, you will be more happy (in case you have that desire).
Seeking for happiness is a dark road with all kinds of pitfalls. Seeking for balance is a more clear path, because it's related to nature.
Theoretically I don't agree about the strict division between body and mind.
I could consider it as a chemical-based entity. Where all kinds of amazing things are possible.
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
I like this and I feel it is essentially correct.
This is how to achieve balance for me.
and no I was not in AA.
He was in one of Tyler Durden's therapy groups...
I didn't know Tyler Durden, but after a search, it seems quite a nitwit to me.
Quote from: "residentgrey"He was in one of Tyler Durden's therapy groups...
Ok....
My
ex wife was an addict of many things. As a result I started to go to Alanon which is the support group for the family of those in AA or NA etc.
I learned quite a lot there.
Sorry, I was joking around a bit..
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"Sorry, I was joking around a bit..
NP - I don't expect everyone to understand, I just was clarifying.
The book actually is the same book as one of the books the AA folks use.
Alanon is for their spouses - and their POV is that the spouse is a co-dependent - otherwise they would not tolerate the behavior.
And co-dependency is.... an addiction to a person.
But that is a long time ago for me now....
But to be back on track -
Alanon takes the POV that there is a higher power and this higher power is willing to take care of us if only we are willing.
This may sound crazy.... but I don't know if it is, as that I have read about the beliefs of aboriginal peoples and they believe in similar things.
Alanon teaches common sense and obtainment of serenity
Being ok with a higher power is part of that.
However some six million jews may object...
I've always been drawn to old beliefs, "animism"...
the thought of everything as spirit.
I go along with you on that..