Reading with interest about "side-chaining" VST effects over at kvr-audio, trying to understand when to use it and to what effect. Does MPT allow for side-chaining? Has anyone experimented?
By the way, to understand what side-chaining is (for those that don't know), look in wikipedia (keyword "side chain", i can't stick the page url)...
In MPT, plugins can pass their audio only to a following plugin or the final mix, but it's not possible to send the output to two sources, f.e. a side-chaining compressor plugin and the final mix. So no, sidechaining is not possible.
oh, and here's your link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression#Side-chaining
Thank you, Jojo -- concise and instructional. 8)
It's not that big of a deal, but at least i get a better idea MPT's limitations....
A chainer would allow you to side-chain though.
a side-chain compressor that works in hosts not natively supporting side-chaining. (http://www.db-audioware.com/sidechaincompressor.htm).
Yep, sidechaining is possible indeed with workarounds and VST plugins. There are ones example that supports "vitrual" channel routing, or as LPChip stated, with chainer it seems to able to do it 2. You will get a lot better dynamic sounding with sidechaining so i wouldn't say that "It's not that big of a deal". =)
I think that every recent producer is using it, i mean i have noticed it on most of the songs.
EDIT: nice example älskling, this VST is using "virtual" channels also.
Quote from: "psishock"EDIT: nice example älskling, this VST is using "virtual" channels also.
Actually it's the only one I found (and Rakib linked to it in another topic too)... The mono version of the Slim Slow Slider side-chaining compressor might also work with OpenMPT, but I don't think it's worth the trouble.
Whether it's a big deal or not, I don't think it is that big of a deal... But I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more automation in OpenMPT.
sidechain compression is "not a big deal" in most musical genres anyway. :P It can sound really bad in many cases.
Chainer may be able to do this, of course, but modplug alone won't do it.
Dunno if i tried that compressor älsking mentioned, but I definitely tried such a compressor once and it didn't work in modplug. and the mono version was just crappy...
Quotebut modplug alone won't do it.
modplug "alone" can't do many things, but there are even free VSTs that will make able to do this in OMPT.
QuoteIt can sound really bad in many cases.
Well it should be used properly and it will make your sounds fit in dynamic range better. Why would it sound "really bad"? You don't have to use it only on kickdrums, you can do it on any sounds that are overlapping each other on similar range, so when one hits in, the other fades out gently, giving more room to the dominant one.
this "fading stuff" is just not supposed to be there in many situations. pushing away another sample just for space is not really a good technique.
The best option still is proper panning. put 2 overlapping frequencies on different locations in the stereofield.
Actually the best option would be to proper eq all the different elements.
:P
well, it's possible to "emulate" side-chaining (doesn't have anything to do with EQs), just ask xaimus. :P looks like a lot of work, though.
I use microgater for my sidechaining needs.
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/727.html
You don't have much room on the dynamic bar LP, when everything is near 0db (normalised environment).
seventhson, i have worked many days recently on a technique that may have about the same effect on dynamic as the sidechain compression, but without the fadeout (side?) effect. Its basically real-time dynamic equalizing, so when some other sounds hit on, only the interfering frequencies would be cut out from the given sound, this way both will sound with the same loudness, clear, without clipping or interfering to each other.
However this job is complicated as hell (setting everything up) and i could only a few VST plugin on the net that could help me with this, and most of them costs around 400+ euro, so i've standed down from that idea.
I know what you mean, i had been thinking about similar techniques as well in the past, but decided it was too complicated for what i needed.
(i like to keep things as simple as possible)
EQ is still the best way to give each sound a certain frequency range so it fits better in the mix.
For example: a hihat doesn't need any low frequencies so why not just filter out all the lowend.
The same principle is valid for all other elements as well.
I like to use sidechain more as an effect to give certain parts that pumping feeling or to give basslines just a little more room when combined with the kickdrum. (after carefull equalizing offcourse)
Quote from: "psishock"i could only a few VST plugin on the net that could help me with this, and most of them costs around 400+ euro, so i've standed down from that idea.
I think Elevayta Spaceboy (http://www.elevayta.net/gallery1.htm) is pretty good and it's less than 25€. Now if only MPT would support plugin delay compensation...
And LPChip, panning is all good but when bass frequencies clash it's not an option (not a good one anyway).
The idea of panning is to make the brain seperate the sounds and thereby making them more clear.
This is not only about the brain. And no, putting the bass left and the bass drum right is NOT a good idea!
Not 100% but even if you do it, say 35% on left and right, it'll work. Basically that means that on one channel the basedrum is 35% stronger than the bass and visa versa on the other channel. Thats usually enough, although it usually doesn't hurt to have a bit more extreme panning situations.
I'm learning about panning atm because thats one of my weak spots, and this discovery made alot of difference to me and my music.
In a classic production lotsa instruments and voices claim the center position, like the basedrum, bass guitar, some singer or solo instrument.
They all work with their elbows to get in the front of all and this leads to fuzzy sounds if the sound spectra are in the same area.
LPChip mentions a nice workaround for this, setting things just a bit off-center, left or right.
a bassdrum that's not in the center is so _wrong_, just like a bass. :P
well, I could challenge you with a piece where the bassdrum is at -53% and the bass at 53%.
What's wrong about that ? A bit of tunnelvision here, I guess.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"well, I could challenge you with a piece where the bassdrum is at -53% and the bass at 53%.
What's wrong about that ? A bit of tunnelvision here, I guess.
You could call it tunnelvision or you could look at it from a more practical point of view.
Here's someone who said it better then i could say:
Re: Sub/Sine bass...
Any elements containing significant amounts of bass and subbass frequencies should usually be kept panned to the center, for several reasons. Bass frequencies are usually the loudest part of a mix, and if they are panned to one side, then that channel will be significantly louder than the other channel, reducing the net loudness of the mix. Furthermore, when playing back on speakers, it is difficult or impossible to localize bass frequencies, so the panning will probably not be noticed. (And, in fact, if the speaker system has a subwoofer, then the panning will simply disappear.) On the other hand, when playing back on headphones, the panning will be noticed, and it will sound extremely unnatural, because we are not used to hearing that kind of directional information in low frequencies.
As for using mono vs. stereo sources, having a kick or a bassline in stereo is not as bad as having it panned, but it can also cause problems; mainly with phase cancellation when converting to mono (or when playing through a subwoofer, which is technically speaking a special case of converting to mono). Bass frequencies are more vulnerable than other frequencies to phase cancellation, so things that would sound OK in other ranges can sound really crummy in the bass range. If you can get a stereo kick or bass sound that does not have any phase cancellation when converted the mono, then there is no problem with having it in stereo (to my knowledge).
But basically, you probably want your kick and bass mono and panned dead center. That said, most of your stereo kicks and bass patches are probably not actually stereo. A stereo audio signal is, for all purposes, equivalent to mono if the left and right channels contain exactly the same information. Many so-called "stereo" audio signals are like this. I suspect that this is the case with a lot of your kick and bass sounds.
You can tell if a stereo signal actually has any stereo information in it by separating the right and left channels into separate channels, inverting the phase of the right channel, and mixing them back together. If you get silence, then it is a mono signal. If you get any sound, then there is stereo information.
Hope that helps.
http://www.idmforums.com/showthread.php?t=24600
Well, with the risk of getting into a rather fruitless, because biased, debate, I'm not convinced here. These arguments are more coming from theoretical than a practical view.
I'll exclude the existence of a subwoofer here, it's just an artifact created by the industry.
It's also based on the wrong conception that the human ear is not able to distinguish direction from a low-freq. sound. I have a record by Tonto's Expanding Head band where a very low sound is bouncing from left to right. No problem.
And, again, this was about subtle differences in panning, not like : 'if not center, then all the way to the side'.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"Well, with the risk of getting into a rather fruitless, because biased, debate, I'm not convinced here. These arguments are more coming from theoretical than a practical view.
I wouldn't say that. I tried it in the past, and still, centered bass frequencies are the most pleasing result, especially on headphones. Bass drums or bass samples that are on a "surround" channel (S91) are together with vocals on surround channels the most annoying thing you could find in all panning mistakes.
I do understand why people want the bass and basedrum in the dead center. Its part of certain music standards, and everyone knows that people dislike to break standards.
Its also true that in classical music it goes entirelly different so its not just that.
But I just wanted to point out that panning can solve the issue here, not if its a good one (although I still insist that its a good one).
To get back on side-chain compressing. It can be done in OpenMPT using a normal compressor or limiter. Or atleast simulate the idea.
The only thing that you must keep in mind, is that the compressor must come last in your chain. Yes, I know that's not what you want to do, because usually the compressor can undo your EQ just like that, but thats the only way for this to work.
The idea is that you use an FX slot with a high number. Say FX10 and put the sources below it. Say FX1->FX2 and FX5->FX6->FX7. (2 sounds)
We want to side-compress them so that when they both sound one will be louder and thus muting the other to a certain degree.
Route both FX2's output and FX7's output to the compressor/limiter on FX10.
Now FX10 will have 2 input signals. In order to make it do its magic, make sure that one of the two signals is extremelly loud. The compressor should be set to limit the signal to the maximum. (or use a limiter) Now: if the normal signal plays its limited to the maximum. If the other plays its reduced to the maximum. If they both play both are push down in volume pretty much. The louder one gets heard while the softer one gets pushed to a much lower volume.
going OT again, I wouldn't say it's different in classical music - you normally have a very strict panning setup there as well, just because of the way an orchestra is arranged. Also, on a real drumset, the bass drum is in the middle , hence the centered bass drum in music. :)
Quote from: "LPChip"To get back on side-chain compressing. It can be done in OpenMPT using a normal compressor or limiter. Or at least simulate the idea.
The idea with side-chaining is that one signal is completely unaffected, so it's not the same or simulating the idea. It's just another way to achieve an over-compressed pumping sound.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"I'll exclude the existence of a subwoofer here, it's just an artifact created by the industry.
So is stereo or surround.
Quote from: "Sam_Zen"It's also based on the wrong conception that the human ear is not able to distinguish direction from a low-freq. sound.
It's not a wrong conception, it's bas(s)ic physics. Of course you can pan bass whichever way you like, but it's not wrong because of some standard, it's wrong because it complicates things.
I'll pass here..
good point. :P
one can't reall argue about music, since it's something very personal, and arguing about techniques is the most sensless thing one can probably do. :)
Quote from: "Jojo"and arguing about techniques is the most sensless thing one can probably do. :)
I think it's not senseless to argue about techniques when someone gives senseless advice. :P
Don't know if the question still needs to be answered, but sidechaining in OMPT should be possible using TwistedLemon SideKick. Dead easy if you ask me, like this:
Bass->Sidekick (first instance)
BD->Sidekick (second instance)
Just play with parameters of these 2 sidekicks or RTFM :D
[EDIT] Dayum! Just looked at their site and now it's updated and payware. How in the hell I've got that old free version, I don't know.
The best sidechain compressor emulation I could find so far that works inside modplug is the one that seventhson suggested (KlangLabs MicroGate). All you have to do is duplicating the "source channel" (i.e. the channel that should duck the other signal), but assign it to an instrument that has no sound by itself, but it has to be assigned to the VST on a MIDI channel (see instrument tab). works like a charm <3
Excellent detective work, Jojo! And the thing is FREEEEE!! :P
Now i'l try it when i need it..... :)
using sidechaining in some genres though is really the way do go... pump a sub with yr kicks an all that.. bump - bump - baoooowwmfh...... as opposed to bump bump - ooom
Sidechaning can add quite a lot to the clearness of the mix - when several instruments (f.e. bass instruments) are fighting for the same frequency, it's better to disable one of them when the other is playing. so far, so good, but it's also applied to other frequencies and more heavily than needed in the "french house" productions, which makes them really pumping - which is a whole different story again. however, if you just sidechain a bass and a bass drum, you won't even notice that the bass fades away!