I have been using other trackers like FastTracker 2, MilkyTracker, Renoise, BeroTracker and others fora long time, but i've never seen such stupid and idiotic user interface. You can throw shit into my face but i wont take my words back. OpenMPt is the most popular and most unusable tracker software in the world.
Even setting all the instruments for a project is pain in the ass. Glitchy filter, uncomfortable using of vsts, GUI fucked up from its roots.
Pattern editing is much easier than setting instrument/samples combination. WTF?
All key commands by default are make me sick and go insane. Play - F5, Stop - ESC. Why not default? Ctrl/Shift/Enter - play song/pattern, ESC/Space - stop/edit.
Overall UI quality is poor. Windows are massive, pattern editor is squeezed horizontally and even larger font do not help. It doesn't feel liek a complete piece of software. It feels like "forever beta".
I have so much to say, but i dont want to write whole diploma on this forum. Evey user who is adequate and appreciates his time can sign up under my words.
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Dear developers, if you love trackers, you has to understand - no need to reinvent bicycle, just make it better. But you decided to create bocycle with triangle wheels and steering wheel in a form of doublesided ****.
I tried to conquer this software for 5 times and every time i stuck on something stupid. Workflow must be easy, I want to write music, not to mess with setting all up for 4 hours.
Good idea, bad execution.
P.S. Note-off command by default MUST be Caps Lock, it is tradition for all the trackers.
Who forced you to use OpenMPT to go that sour? If you don't like it, go and use whatever software you want. The more different software there is, the better. Not every tracker needs to be to every musician's taste.
QuoteAll key commands by default are make me sick and go insane. Play - F5, Stop - ESC. Why not default? Ctrl/Shift/Enter - play song/pattern, ESC/Space - stop/edit.
QuoteP.S. Note-off command by default MUST be Caps Lock, it is tradition for all the trackers.
This shows how much you know about the diversity of "all" trackers. OpenMPT's default keybindings are close to a lot of Impulse Tracker's keybindings rather than FastTracker's, and neither Impulse Tracker nor its inofficial predecessor, Scream Tracker 3 - both immensely popular trackers of the era - use Caps Lock as key-off. F5 is the way to start pattern playback on both Scream Tracker 3 and Impulse Tracker, Schism Tracker, Chibi Tracker, etc. OpenMPT does not claim to be a FastTracker clone. If you want a modern tracker with a FastTracker look&feel, use Renoise.
In summary: Just because you are used to FastTracker keybindings, please don't project your opinion on other people.
Almost every keyboard shortcut is customizable in OpenMPT, unlike in FastTracker or MilkyTracker. If you are seriously interested in making things according to your taste, you could help by providing a key map that's closer to those trackers. Or tell us what you find so frustrating about setting up instruments, so that we can make it better. But given your language I doubt that you intend to be helpful.
Good Bye.
Quote from: Saga Musix on January 24, 2023, 17:35:42Who forced you to use OpenMPT to go that sour? If you don't like it, go and use whatever software you want. The more different software there is, the better. Not every tracker needs to be to every musician's taste.
I tried to use OpenMPT for its potential (unlimited tracks, stereo sampling, VST support, good basic sampling operations). Great, absolutely great free (appreciate this very much) alternative for Renoise which needs some polish.
Yes, differencies make things unique, but unique is not equal to good. Why am I so toxic and drop this words here? Cuz everyone can and must criticize things to influence their development, no matter what it is: software, hardware, music, movies etc.
Yes, not every tracker needs to please everyone's taste, but there is common principles of any DAW (which any trackers is in the shell) and the main is accesibility.
I dont use trackers made for psychos who like to waste their time instead of writing music, like Schism Tracker for example. Thats the reason why i may be incompetent in some different kinds of trackers, I accept that lack of knowledge.
Also, as you didnt say anything about UI and overall instrument/sample operations, that means that i am right. Great potential in OpenMPT is limited by its crappy logic and poor UI.
This post was the only reason to register here. I know how much effort and how much hours are spent to develop this software, but sometimes we need to accept our mistakes.
This discussion will lead to nowhere, cuz everyone today is soft as teddy bear and can't take criticism because they think it's toxic.
Thanks for your answer. BB.
I can understand the frustration expressed here in intentionally confrontational language, and I agree with the sentiment that everyone needs to be able to take criticisms...
These days I can make a tune in modplug in a few measly hours (sometimes as little as 2) but I also know it took me MANY years to get to the stage I am at now, and I NEVER recommend ompt to a beginner because of the insanely long time it took me to learn what I know now and I am still always finding out new interesting things - which is why I lurk on these forums, reading almost anything that is posted in hopes that I will find new insights on more efficient ways to do things I have been breaking my back doing in the past. This is something that happened to me recently actually when I learned about the LFO btw - great job on that btw saga, I have recently started using it for all sorts of things...
BUT - I had to come here to learn about it and how it works... there is literally nothing in the help documentation... I know because I checked by searching LFO in the help thing, and so I had to come here to find out about it, did a search for LFO and found a few years old topic about it, which is how I know it was your project saga.
to be clear, I might have actually seen the topic when it came up, but I had no idea what was being talked about (I am sure I was overwhelmed with learning vsts at the time - which is a never ending struggle since every new vst is a whole new galaxy of possibility)... but with my new linux partition I had a completely new and clean version of vanilla ompt and I looked through all the provided tools in the vst section before I installed any vsts just so I could tag every one of them with the vanilla tag so I would know I can use them if I want to make tunes that can play in vanilla ompt, and that is when I found it.
I think if we look past the spitting hatred here we can open our minds to how this happens and maybe we could actually make ompt more inviting for new users... something I have been trying to hint this wonderful software could actually do... Demo songs are great the help documents is extensive, and they are how I remember learning the basics when I first picked up ompt... years of diving into them, and I still do it every now and then... but maybe a welcome screen specifically made for new users could be implemented in the first pop up once ompt is installed - an obvious x box with the caption "I am a new user" unclicked by default.
If it is clicked some basic guidance could be given (with a skip this section of the tutorial option for people who have tracked before in other trackers but need to be introduced to ompt specifically) with arrows and text and care, something like this could be so good for the software.
It would, without doubt, be a massive project to undertake. But I think it would be well worth the effort.
Ompt is great software, and it can be very confusing to understand for people who arent bloody minded enough to press buttons just to see what they fucking do (like I was :P)...
Anyways - that is how I think we can look at this post, those are the thoughts I am taking from this, remembering my first years with ompt and tracking in general and how confusing finding everything out was in both situations.
my 2 cents.
I admit one of the things that helped me a hell of a lot when I changed to ompt from impulse tracker was that I could set ompt to the keyboard layout impulse - and since I almost exclusively used keyboard shortcuts in impulse, - I was about half way there, I just had to learn the interface for everything again, which - admittedly took me longer than my rose tinted glasses might want me to admit.
So theoretically, even I had an easier time that our OP here... so I admit I have sympathy for his struggle.
To you - mr PrayThePo - I would like to say, once you get the hang of the system in ompt, it can become a thing you love with all your heart, I know it is to me - but I still have my memories of the struggles I went through, admittedly through the fog of many years, but they are there - so many times swearing at the computer, diving deeper into the help documents saying to myself "I know I can do this, how the fuck do I do it" scouring the forums here for insights into how each thing works and the relief when I finally got my two brain cells to understand.
If you would like to talk about it and would actually like to use this software, which I think you do from your passion here I am guessing that you have learned of what ompt can do and you want to do it right now, then please feel free to put some curious messages in the forums here, or even pm me at least, and if I can help you I will try to do so.
I am sorry you are frustrated, I feel ya man. I was there - many years ago - but there none the less, but I was determined and bloody minded enough to find out what I have found out in my own ways by making music and getting better and better at it.
I dont know what trackers you have used in the past but believe me, I feel the same way you do when trying to use ompt whenever I try to open any daw and I always quit before I even make a single tune... new things that dont work the way we expect them to are very frustrating, but that is ok... you can do it!
Just thought id give my opinion.
I've been away from trackers for 20 years and I've found openmpt very easy to use and get back into trackers, and I think the UI is a big part of it, the modern scalable interface which old trackers never had. I tried Renoise and Milkytracker, Protrekker but the interface is still stuck in the 90s
I too had issues with the keyboard layout and sample/instrument parts when I started messing about with OpenMPT, but its just part of learning a new program and certainly hasn't stopped me making use of the program and I'm still learning something every time i use it.
I for one am grateful that OpenMPT exists and is actively developed/supported
Modplug is opensource, you always can make your fork of it.
I remember I had problems using FT2 when it first came out, stopped and then discovered Modplug Tracker. I really liked the windows style of interface and windows, I have tried others like, Psycle and Renoise, Madtracker but I really find the GUI to be easy to master.
Yeah I have to be honest, Fasttracker's interface irritated me to no end, and I never got the hang of it, but that wasnt the reason I stopped trying. I stopped because impulse tracker was more powerful for what I wanted to do (or so I thought) and then when it came to the stage of ditching impulse because of dos there was simply no question that what I needed to learn was mpt. At first I was very anti a windows based bit of software that was all point and click, but yeah these days I dont even use the F buttons to change tabs.
tbh i found only 1 short tutorial on yt and it's basically just an overview, i believe you have to (re)learn every new tracker from the ground up, similar to many traditional daws
you basically learn everything new thru experience and tinkering, it may not be easy but it's worth the time and effort believe me
it also depends what kind of music you want compose, some daws and trackers are better suite for specific type of music, genre etc
Quote from: PRAYTHEPO on January 24, 2023, 17:58:02Yes, differencies make things unique, but unique is not equal to good. Why am I so toxic and drop this words here? Cuz everyone can and must criticize things to influence their development, no matter what it is: software, hardware, music, movies etc.
Criticism absolutely doesn't need to be toxic. The equivalent of your initial post here is being invited to someone's house for dinner, and shitting on the table because there was too much salt in the food, instead of politely telling them the fact that there was too much salt (which may in fact just be a matter of taste). Don't expect to be invited to that person's house again.
There is a lot of valid criticism that can be applied to OpenMPT or any other software, but doing so with cuss words and ranting only guarantees one thing: That I am not interested in listening to you. So if you want to see change - please be constructive.
Quote from: PRAYTHEPO on January 24, 2023, 17:58:02Yes, not every tracker needs to please everyone's taste, but there is
Also, as you didnt say anything about UI and overall instrument/sample operations, that means that i am right.
LOL. As if.
No, just as said above, I see no point in answering to a generic rant that doesn't even address any concrete issues. If you say OpenMPT's logic is "crappy". What does that even mean. How am I supposed to act on that. Rewrite every piece of logic in OpenMPT to do exactly the opposite? I hope you realize that you provided zero valuable feedback to make OpenMPT better. Same about "poor UI" - The Windows UI has always been the most controversial part of OpenMPT, no doubt, but it's also its main distinguishing feature. To put it in a single sentence: If you want OpenMPT to become a tracker that looks like FastTracker 2 - it's never going to happen.
Quote from: PRAYTHEPO on January 24, 2023, 17:58:02This post was the only reason to register here. I know how much effort and how much hours are spent to develop this software, but sometimes we need to accept our mistakes.
I'll stand by the fact that everyonething you mentioned so far is entirely up to taste and not a mistake. If you are incapable of presenting your arguments without throwing curse words around, the indeed there is no point in having this discussion, and I will kindly ask you to leave. If, on the other hand, you have concrete changes you want to see, and you are able to present them in a concise manner without vitriol, you are welcome to put them on our issue tracker.
I loved the colourful shitting on the table analogy saga XD got me lolling big time, and you are dead on, criticism doesnt have to be toxic.
And a wholeheartedly agree that there was nothing resembling constructive actionable criticism in the post, it was all down to taste and personal perspective- what our op here was expecting from a tracker was not met by ompt and then they decided to rant on the forums.
What I personally can sympathize with is the frustration of learning something weird and from your perspective, counter intuitive. That has been my problem with daws and why I have never managed to make the leap.
And that is why I think it would actually not be a bad idea to think of a "welcome to OMPT" option at the first opening of a new install (something ppl can opt out of) "This is the main tab, this is the pattern tab - this is the note column, instrument column, etc, this is the sample tab, you can draw samples here by pressing this button..." that kind of thing for super beginners and maybe a more advanced thing that tells you a little bit about every part of each tab for people who have tracked before but want a quick crash course in how ompt itself works like our OP here. And as I said, obviously something like this would be a massive undertaking, but I think it is something we could think about.
I am also wondering if the overview you found Vojvodinosaurus might have been mine... I did one "universal art's introduction to Modplug" on my youtube channel, and I have been meaning to make more and maybe even redoing the one I have done to make it more idiot proof. I did make it 6 years ago at this stage, so yeah my editing skills and general ability as a video host has improved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfOJdFNuC_w (that's the link) It is in fact one of the first videos I made for my youtube channel.
@Exhale no this is what i was talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IxSL1zrLDo
it's Vectif and he said he did some unreleased demos with ompt and as you can see video is not that old
Quote from: PRAYTHEPO on January 24, 2023, 16:33:39FastTracker 2, MilkyTracker
Well, it's wrong to compare the interface in DOS-like applications and the usual GDI Windows applications. All old DOS/Amiga trackers compared to OpenMPT are terribly inconvenient, because the control is done primarily with hotkeys and there is no proper MIDI keyboard. Impulse tracker is the best among the old trackers, but it's also inconvenient compared to OpenMPT in which you can easily copy the entire channels with your mouse and etc.
Quote from: PRAYTHEPO on January 24, 2023, 16:33:39Renoise
Renoise has the most awkward interface I've ever seen. The interface is just a mess. When I tried to use it, I just couldn't find anything. It's like the editor is purposely trying to push features in your face. At least there's some balance in OpenMPT. And yes, Renoise has a very bad keyboard for inserting notes too, I couldn't set it up properly.
Quote from: PRAYTHEPO on January 24, 2023, 16:33:39Windows are massive, pattern editor is squeezed horizontally and even larger font do not help. It doesn't feel liek a complete piece of software. It feels like "forever beta".
Never thought about it, OpenMPT looks fine on a Full HD screen.
@Saga Musix It's about time to rewrite OpenMPT on Qt/QML. Windows GDI is good but it's not cross-platform. ;)
It's a pity that there is no backend for working with modules (opening, editing and saving), otherwise everything would be much easier. Writing a front-end for the application isn't that hard. The major functionality of OpenMPT is nailed to WinAPI and GDI.
Quote from: monsterovich on January 31, 2023, 23:01:18It's a pity that there is no backend for working with modules (opening, editing and saving), otherwise everything would be much easier. Writing a front-end for the application isn't that hard.
It's certainly one reason why the Qt port won't be done by next week. But we're getting there. As I'm working on scripting support every now and then on the side, some things have already moved out of the UI code so they can be reused and shared more easily. There's also other huge refactoring actions that we have done during the last few years which will eventually help us getting there, such as increasing type safety when mixing different string types (which will keep happening even if/when we switch to a different UI framework). Tearing down and rebuilding the very foundation of a software is not something that can be just done in an afternoon. It requires a lot of thoughtful consideration.
Well, You gotta admire coming in to kick the hornets nest over...A Tiger going into the Lions Den which happens to be full to the brim.
OpenMPT is not my cup of tea either...I always refer to it as the 'Windows Explorer Tracker'...I say it is probably the musical equivalent of Blender for the CG Peeps. Very powerful but rubs me wrong.
But sheer power & feature set is not the 'end all' of attributes & if a Tracker is not ever going to use any of the advanced features of OpenMPT or perhaps refuses to learn anything about musical composition just creating more 'bwomp, bwomp, bwomp........' all at high volume & fast BPM with no breaks just 'jumping octaves' & applying overt filter sweeps for an agonizing 12 minute 'tune' then a very simple tracker will do.
Original poster could probably have been more methodical & scientific about presenting argument but overall there won't be too many takers here.
Personally I wish I could take all the best attributes of ALL trackers I have used & reject the grim features & make it so. But I have gotten into the 'challenge' of work arounds and alt methods probably more of a hobby than tracking is as there are so many unfinished & abandoned trackers out there.
Quote from: SewerSide on February 16, 2023, 13:02:23OpenMPT is not my cup of tea either...I always refer to it as the 'Windows Explorer Tracker'...I say it is probably the musical equivalent of Blender for the CG Peeps. Very powerful but rubs me wrong.
I think, required special Text mode GUI interface
all good, it's a great tracker. But it needs a dark theme 8)
I've always quite liked OpenMPT i even contributed to it by submitting color icons for the GUI ;D
Now for modern music production I guess it just cannot compete with DAWs for things like automation, VST integration, good MIDI support... but as a tracker when dealing with pure samples it works really well. The "new" event chase also helps useability a lot (the fact that you don't have to go back a few rows to trigger the samples, they start right from the current playing position).
Okay, time to close this thread. No need to keep it alive with ideas why OpenMPT might not appeal to some people. The original poster made it clear that their issue with OpenMPT is that it does not mimic FT2. No textmode interface, no tutorial for beginners, no MIDI support, no DAW-like features will help with that. As the original poster did not provide any constructive feedback beyond that, there's no need to keep discussing this.