Author Topic: New user to OpenMPT who is blind  (Read 1569 times)

Offline Diamond

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2017, 00:06:27 »
Its downside is that you need to memorize which sample is which, because (even for sighted users) there is no way to see which sample number belongs to which sample name.

Interestingly, I have never found this to be much of a problem since typing the sample number to assign it previews the sample as well.

Offline musicalman

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2017, 03:11:31 »
I really don't know how to describe this on nice easy-to-explain terms but I will do my best. The sample map editor I am talking about is in a separate dialog. I go to instruments with alt n, then use the mouse to find the spin box with the instrument number and bring that to focus. Once that's done, I can tab around and adjust things, and eventually I will find an unlabeled graphic. IIRC Jaws did see a sample map editor label, but can't remember now. If I double-clicked that, I would be brought into a dialog with a title of "sample map" which had a list box of samples, a slider, and a checkbox labeled show all samples, with an OK and cancel button. If you moved the mouse around, There were also numbers which I think were the annotations indicating which samples were used on the keys of the mapping keyboard. The slider IIRC scrolled the keyboard. So I'd go in the sample list, focus on the sample I wanted to apply, and then mouse around the keyboard, clicking on the keys I wanted assigned to that sample. So for example if all keys were mapped to sample 1 and I wanted some keys to use 2, I'd focus sample 2 in the list, then click on the keys I wanted 2 assigned to. Go ahead and cringe. I sure do when I think about it. I have a lot to learn.

Based on what I read I presume this is not the dialog recommended for me to go into. If this is the case then any tips for going into the other one?

Offline Diamond

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2017, 06:52:56 »
Well, you're at least halfway there.  On the "Instruments" tab, put focus in the instrument number spin box as you are already doing and Shift Tab once.  The sample map I am referring to will now have focus.  The problem is that as I said, I discovered with NVDA it unfortunately just sees the control as a graphic, but if you try it with JAWS it should speak note/sample number when navigating with the Arrow keys as I described.  For the record, I'm not sure I understand how or why even JAWS is reading anything from this section since according to Saga Musix, it is a bitmapped control similar to the pattern view.

Offline Diamond

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2017, 06:57:33 »
Oh yes, and Make sure that the main window and document window are both maximized.  I vaguely remember that JAWS might not speak anything in the sample map otherwise.

Offline Saga Musix

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2017, 12:52:33 »
Yeah, that's a side effect of drawing optimizations - bitmapped areas that are not visible are also not updated, so JAWS cannot see any of the strings that would end up on that bitmap.
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Offline musicalman

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2017, 17:44:23 »
Wow, just tried this with Jaws and it does read things. Didn't try adjusting the sample map yet but the unlabeled graphic NVDA sees speaks a lot of information with Jaws, which I don't remember it ever doing last year when I tried it. I'll play with it more in a bit.

Offline Diamond

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2017, 18:04:26 »
It may not have worked when you tried it last year if the window wasn't maximized.  I discovered this after I wasted time filing a bug report.  It has worked for me since I first tried OpenMPT many many years ago.  Although back then it was still just called ModPlug Tracker before it went open source.

Offline musicalman

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2017, 23:44:45 »
So, I've thought of something else a few weeks ago and wasn't sure how practical/useful it would be, but am throwing it out nevertheless.

In the pattern editor, you can press control enter to play the current row. When you do this though, your cursor jumps to the next row. The advantage to this is that you can keep hitting control enter until you find a row of interest, but the disadvantage is that once you hear the row you're looking for, you have to hit up arrow once to go back to that row.  For me at least, this makes things tedious and sometimes disorienting if I'm dealing with dense patterns.

I wonder if it would be easier from a blindness perspective to have a play mode where rows would be played as your cursor moves to them, so that by simply pressing the up and down arrows you could hear the row you were focused on, and once you hit a row of interest, you could immediately check something or make changes. The midi sequencer I use has a note editor which works this way. The editor is a note grid, with adjustable snap similar to the speed effect. Because it's midi you don't have to line stuff up with the grid snap values, but that's beside the point. What's relevant is that when your cursor bumps into a note, whether by moving by grid snap value or by jumping directly between notes, the note under the cursor is played, and from there you can modify its properties. I like this because I can hear in realtime where I'm at with no need to update the feedback manually, and if I miss my stop first time, I can just go back and quickly find the correct note and do what I have to do. Maybe there's already a way to get spontaneous feedback in the pattern editor in Open MPT that I'm just not aware of? If not, I'd be interested to know how useful such a feature might be. It certainly sounds really nice to me in my head, but it sounds like a really simple thing and a little voice in my head is telling me I'm not the only one who's thought of it so it must have been accounted for in one way or another. Lol

Offline Saga Musix

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2017, 23:49:14 »
It should be doable to add it has a hidden setting, there are just some things to consider. For example, should this be a setting that's always enabled or does it need to be toggle-able? I don't know if it would be annoying if it was always enabled. Another thought is if it should always play the whole row (easy) or just the current channel (tricky if it's also supposed to handle effects and stuff).
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Offline Diamond

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2017, 00:07:51 »
I definitely think it should be toggle-able.  And at least in my opinion, it should play just the row, not the entire channel since from a blind person's prospective, the whole point is to preview what is under the cursor as you navigate with Arrow keys and so on.  Or perhaps two different settings could be added.  One for playing just the row and one for playing the entire channel?

Offline musicalman

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2017, 01:02:58 »
The way I imagine it, it would behave like control enter. So all unmuted channels plus all their effects. Having some easy way to toggle it is definitely not a bad idea as Diamond said.

It should play just the row, not the entire channel since from a blind person's prospective, the whole point is to preview what is under the cursor as you navigate with Arrow keys and so on.
I think there may be a misinterpretation. What I think Saga musix was saying was that you would always here what's under the cursor, it's just a question of whether it plays the channel you're on, or all channels mixed. If I am indeed understanding this right, then I say go the easy route and not bother with isolating the channel you're on. I could see myself wanting to hear what I'm doing in the context of the mix. If I want to hear just the active channel, I could solo it with control f10.

Offline Diamond

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2017, 01:19:22 »
I think there may be a misinterpretation. What I think Saga musix was saying was that you would always here what's under the cursor, it's just a question of whether it plays the channel you're on, or all channels mixed. If I am indeed understanding this right, then I say go the easy route and not bother with isolating the channel you're on. I could see myself wanting to hear what I'm doing in the context of the mix. If I want to hear just the active channel, I could solo it with control f10.

No misinterpretation, but this is why I said two individual settings might be an option since I would personally prefer only to hear the active channel.  Although just soloing the active channel might be a satisfactory solution.

Offline Saga Musix

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2017, 18:02:44 »
I probably won't have time to look into this before the 1.27 release, so in order for it to not be forgotten, can you please sum up the results of the latest discussion here as a feature request on the issue tracker?
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Offline musicalman

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2017, 19:11:21 »
Just looked at the issue tracker and because I'm not really familiar with such things and don't have a lot of time today, I wasn't able to figure out exactly how to fill out the submission form for a feature request instead of an issue. If someone else can put it there, go ahead and do it, or else I will try more thoroughly later.

Offline Saga Musix

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Re: New user to OpenMPT who is blind
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2017, 19:12:27 »
Sorry, I was actually more thinking of Diamond as he's already familiar with with the issue tracker. :)
Reporting an issue is the same as reporting a feature request, it's just a matter of selecting the correct severity level, "feature". And even if it's not reported in the correct category, we can always fix it manually. But I prefer people to submit their ideas by themselves since they know best what they need.
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